LTN Discussion

[Rockets]

Ex- some interesting points but.....

- I don't think you can lay the blame of the congestion down to people driving before and after the charge comes into effect (and I do chuckle where there is always some excuse that the pro-lobby throw out anytime the stats show their interventions may not be doing what they want it to ;-)) because London is congested all day everyday now - and particularly around the usual rush hour/school drop times and I suspect many people are leaving earlier/later to avoid the chaos (rather than to avoid the charge per se).

Interesting you quote the average traffic speeds of 10 - 12 mph since the 30s - did you notice that London now is at 10mph and that is the slowest (by some margin) on the rest of the UK cities in the top 10. Also, why do you think all other UK cities have seen a marked decrease in congestion levels yet London is the only one to record an increase since pre-Covid?

Table 1: 10 Most Congested Urban Areas in the U.K - see attachment

And I agree that people need a nudge but at what point do we have to say...hang on folks this isn't working and it actually having an adverse impact on the health and wealth of our city? It's been well over two years for a lot of these interventions and it is clear they are not delivering and I think one of the biggest problems in central London is that bus lane infrastructure has been impacted by the provision of desire of provide cycle lanes - look at many of the bridges over the Thames now where buses now have to share a lane with cars.

At what point do people need to start questioning whether the investment in cycling infrastructure has been worth it and whether it is having an overall positive or negative impact on London?

The recent ONS census showed that in 2011 4.3% of Londoners over the age of 16 commuted to work on a bike and in 2021 that had risen slightly to 5.1% and nowhere near the 1000% increases being promised/lauded during lockdown by pro-LTN advocates. You can't just keep following a policy that is not delivering on the goals it set out and you can't keep going on forever promising the change will come because the negative impact of congestion is being felt by everyone.

[legalalien]

Interesting to see the conservatives in the London Assembly raising issues in relation to the decision making process around the proposed ULEZ expansion - the response being that a consultation is not a referendum - where have I heard that before? (That is of course a statement of fact, but doesn’t excuse manipulating the results of the consultation, if that’s what happened...)

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ulez-expansion-consultation-sadiq-khan-london-assembly-labour-conservatives-b1053496.html?amp

Conservative allegations here:

https://www.glaconservatives.co.uk/post/sadiq-khan-made-false-and-dishonest-statements-to-the-london-assembly-and-manipulated-ulez-results

Unrelated I believe there was something in the Telegraph about Dulwich residents’ groups bringing some sort of action to oppose the Turney Road closure. I don’t have a Telegraph subscription, does anyone know anything about that?

[Earl Aelfheah]

The same figures show that 53.5% of those commuting to work in Southwark travel less than 5km. For most that'll be around a 10-15 min cycle one way. We need to make it much easier, safer and pleasant, by removing motor vehicles from many more public spaces (as they have in other European capitals).

Also 5.7% commute by bike, versus 8.8% by car or van in Southwark. Yet, every single street is full with two lines of parked cars as well as busy roads. Less than half of households have access to a car. Most cars sit stationary at least 95% of the time. Another reason we need to reallocate more space to people.

Edited January 17, 2023 by rahrahrah

[Earl Aelfheah]

19% of Southwark commuters travel less than 2km - around a 20 minute walk

It's really difficult to justify why the vast majority of public space is allocated to motor vehicles when most households in the borough don't have access to a car. Especially when most of the costs of motoring are 'externalised'.

[Rockets]

Could it be Rahx3 that a lot of public space is dedicated to cars because, despite all those stats you quote, people choose to own cars? And perhaps that is because they need cars - that their lives don't revolve around a 2km circle and that cycling just doesn't work for them and their family as a viable option for all their travel needs? A car is often the second biggest expense in people's lives yet they continue to want to own and use them - do those behind the war on cars ever take time to consider why? Just because they chose to cycle doesn't mean that everyone else can or will but policies are implemented on the blind assumption that everyone can. Look at Will Norman, he cycles a lot but his boss Sadiq Khan gets transported around in an armour-plated Range Rover - why because Will can but Sadiq can't.

In Southwark there are parts of the borough that have low car ownership and parts that have high car ownership - you can't implement policies that presume car ownership is low across the whole borough when the council cites poor public transport, large family size etc as the major reasons why some parts of the borough (like ours) have high car ownership.

In the real world, I am afraid, a one-size fits all solution doesn't exist - despite what the pro-cycling/pro-LTN lobby would like everyone to believe.

[heartblock]

Car ownership is higher inside the LTNs than outside. Maybe LTNs should have no street parking, except for disabled bays...... methinks that might make some 3-car-owning gated community advocates rethink their position.

I'm for free at the point of use public transport - funded by higher taxes for the Uber-wealthy and getting rid of the tax breaks for private schools. LTNs just benefit the wealthy and we all know it really...

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Rockets - You were suggesting that investment in cycling infrastructure wasn't worth it because 'so few' commute by bike.

I'm just pointing out that only 8.8% commute by car. How much more space and investment do we put into driving infrastructure?

Streets make up 80% of public space and most of it is devoted to motor vehicle use and storage.

When you also consider that most of those journeys could be cycled in around 10-15 mins, (or walked in under half an hour) it just makes your argument even weaker.

Edited January 17, 2023 by rahrahrah

[Earl Aelfheah]

@heartblock - I would be very happy to see on street parking removed and a lot more pedestrianisation. If we did that (like they have in other European capitals), we would see much more walking and cycling (and community life generally).

[Huggers]

European cities that have minimum cars are the ones who have put in place a swift, safe, reliable and cheap public transport system first. Then public transport becomes first choice, as it does for residents in central London where it is plentiful. Not the ones who cut buses, cut trains, have trains stopping at ridiculously early times in the evening and then discourage cars at the same time. People use their cars when it's a pain in the arse to get somewhere that- as the crow flies- is not too far away, Or it's too scary to wait for a bus on a dark wet street..

[Earl Aelfheah]

Ok. So why have we not pedestrianised most of central London? Soho, Oxford and regents street, seven dials, brick lane, etc etc. truth is that cars dominate almost every part of this city - totally disproportionately. And any attempt to dissuade people from making short journeys by car, externalising the costs and impacts of that decision, is met with hysteria. Car drivers have been stopped cutting through a hand fall of back streets and they won’t stop moaning about it. Entitled or what?

[Earl Aelfheah]

And the reason it’s a pain to get anywhere is because too many drive, not the other way round. Cars slow buses, put people off walking or cycling and cost the exchequer huge amounts of public money in ‘externalities’, which might otherwise be spent improving public transport. Most journeys in London are short distance (under 2km) and the private car (and increasingly the SUV) is an incredibly inefficient way to do many of them.

[CPR Dave]

Evangelical cyclists with no friends and no social awareness do far more to put people off cycling than cars do.

[heartblock]

Good public transport means the ability to take kids, shopping, dog.... etc. on transport that is clean, easily accessible and travels to and from where people want to go. If I remember rightly the good people of Calton Avenue didn't want a bus with us plebeians on it spoiling the look of their road... same for Gilkes.

Melbourne Grovers ..... pressurised Southwark and LT to stop the 37 bus ruining their lovely rd.

Funny isn't it.

But owning 3 cars and 'demanding' a closed rd is apparently fine.

[Earl Aelfheah]

"investment in cycling infrastructure should be considered in terms of the numbers commuting by bike."

...and the same for cars?

I didn't mean that!!

"You should take away on street parking around LTNs"

...good idea!

I didn't mean that!

"pedestrianisations couldn't work here, it's not central London."

...let's do more of it in central London then

I didn't mean that!

"I'm all in favour of more active travel and fewer car journeys in principle"

...Ok, so let's encourage cycling and walking and discourage car use

Militant!

[rjsmall]

If the closed / not closed Dulwich Village junction is to be permanent then I think the road set-up around it needs to be changed. I'd like to see on street parking removed from Eynella Road, Court Lane, Carlton Avenue and Woodwarde Road with those roads being divided into a two way cycle lane on one side and a clockwise running one way road system on the other. It would make it a lot safer for cyclists and would allow for the P4 bus to be rerouted down Court Lane and through the junction.

[Rockets]

@Rockets - You were suggesting that investment in cycling infrastructure wasn't worth it because 'so few' commute by bike.

I'm just pointing out that only 8.8% commute by car. How much more space and investment do we put into driving infrastructure?

Streets make up 80% of public space and most of it is devoted to motor vehicle use and storage.

When you also consider that most of those journeys could be cycled in around 10-15 mins, (or walked in under half an hour) it just makes your argument even weaker.

 

What I am suggesting is that the Mayor's office and local authorities have over-indexed on trying to promote cycling as the cure-all to all of London's vehicle-use woes and they have neglected other modes of transport as a result - that they let the pro-cycling lobby over-influence the policies and "remedies" that they rolled out. They got seduced by the ludicrous idea that London could be like Amsterdam, Berlin or Copenhagen without properly understanding how London is or operates.

The massive investment in cycling infrastructure, and this goes back to before Covid, has not delivered the numbers of cyclists required to compensate for the reduction in road space for other vehicles and this is what has led to the 5% increase in congestion in London compared to pre-Covid - the only UK city in the top 10 to register an increase in congestion levels. And the reason for the failure to deliver is glaringly obvious which is London is a huge city with a working population that is spread far and wide and travel more than a couple of miles to their place of work - many of those that need to get to the centre of London do so via trains, tubes and buses that go in and out of London. London has always had great in and out transport links but very little that goes across - it's why the Elizabeth line was so welcome.

No-one on the pro-LTN lobby ever stops to think why people own and use cars - likely the second biggest financial outlay a person might make. They just say - well if I don't need a car why do they? I suspect often the loudest voices come from those who live in big houses, can afford to own and store a cargo bike (we know people who bought temperature controlled sheds for said cargo bikes that cost as much as the bikes themselves) and use said bikes to drop the children to school and head to Gail's for coffee. But the rest of London isn't like the wonderful Dulwich and so they care not for any of the challenges for most people to embrace cycling.

Don't get me wrong every journey that is done on a bike or on foot (and remember Dulwich had some of the highest % of walked local journeys of the whole borough prior to these interventions - up around 70% if I remember rightly) rather than a car is a good thing but don't for one moment think that London will ever become a 15-minute city and realise that these interventions are having a negative impact on everyone.

[malumbu]

Spot on RahRah. Rocks whatever is posted broadly in support of tackling car culture you post you same long winded arguments and your talk about pro LTN lobbies is just annoying.

So to repeat myself. We've had a pro car culture in the UK for 60 years or so. This brought greater mobility for the masses which is a good thing. But for most in our lovely city this is an expensive indulgence, not a necessity. And most of us are able bodied and most of us don't need a car just in case we needed to be rushed to hospital.

So with the lack of central government action in terms of fiscal policy, including road user charging, the lack of central government messaging, education including health benefits, nudge, economics, the impact on air quality, climate change, and good citizenship are not delivering change some local authorities are taking bolder (or blunter depending on your perspective) action.

Please accept that less motoring, and where cars are kept smarter motoring, is a necessity

[first mate]

Hmm, given current ambulance times, train strikes and unreliable public transport I suspect a car is exactly what you might need to get to hospital fast in an emergency.

[Rockets]

Spot on RahRah. Rocks whatever is posted broadly in support of tackling car culture you post you same long winded arguments and your talk about pro LTN lobbies is just annoying.

So to repeat myself. We've had a pro car culture in the UK for 60 years or so. This brought greater mobility for the masses which is a good thing. But for most in our lovely city this is an expensive indulgence, not a necessity. And most of us are able bodied and most of us don't need a car just in case we needed to be rushed to hospital.

So with the lack of central government action in terms of fiscal policy, including road user charging, the lack of central government messaging, education including health benefits, nudge, economics, the impact on air quality, climate change, and good citizenship are not delivering change some local authorities are taking bolder (or blunter depending on your perspective) action.

Please accept that less motoring, and where cars are kept smarter motoring, is a necessity

 

Malumbu - I do accept that less motoring is a necessity but when I see statements like this:

And most of us are able bodied and most of us don't need a car just in case we needed to be rushed to hospital.

....it shows just how far folks on your side of the debate need to educate themselves about why people own and use cars and how far you need to change before there can be some proper, effective and pragmatic solutions to the problem to be implemented, Your comment is blinkered and viewed from your perspective only - which is exactly what we have come to expect from the pro-cycle lobby and why the solutions being implemented are impacting the health, wealth and well-being of our city.

P.S. Has your household now gone car free?

[first mate]

Rocks, that is the point.

Most of the pro lobby all own cars too. It is just that they view their own occasional need as completely justified and feel comfortable being judge and jury in terms of determining the needs of others.

No doubt they attend to care needs of relatives by always visiting on bicycle and probably take them to various appointments, medical or otherwise, using a cargo bike.

[heartblock]

Great idea - why will it not happen? Car storage for the wealthy privileged few. Labour Council humph.

If the closed / not closed Dulwich Village junction is to be permanent then I think the road set-up around it needs to be changed. I'd like to see on street parking removed from Eynella Road, Court Lane, Carlton Avenue and Woodwarde Road with those roads being divided into a two way cycle lane on one side and a clockwise running one way road system on the other. It would make it a lot safer for cyclists and would allow for the P4 bus to be rerouted down Court Lane and through the junction.

[heartblock]

Yep - 'my journey in a car is necessary and my car storage is appropriate - but yours isn't' ..... followed by pictures of children on bikes.

 

Rocks, that is the point.

Most of the pro lobby all own cars too. It is just that they view their own occasional need as completely justified and feel comfortable being judge and jury in terms of determining the needs of others.

No doubt they attend to care needs of relatives by always visiting on bicycle and probably take them to various appointments, medical or otherwise, using a cargo bike.

[ab29]

I sincerely hope the legal challenge succeeds and the ltns are removed from Dulwich roads.

Enough of individuals like Rose bulling everyone to accept this ridiculous idea.

She care to say ‘no apology for keeping young children ‘as safe as possible’ - what about children living / walking / waiting on buses on Lordship Lane / Croxted / EDG, South Circular etc. ?

In what kind of parallel universe Rose and her chums live in ??

The hypocrisy of it !

https://southwarknews.co.uk/news/transport/dulwich-residents-threaten-council-with-legal-action-over-ltn/?fbclid=IwAR1NvLxSUNNcnN8GjX1VvoLaYjfqYVPgWO8ZjKH0V8CGpeLPugCTbzPWc0o

[Gabe]

Give it up, lads. The Southwark LTNs, including this one in Dulwich, are a big success for the majority of people.

The idea that Lorsdship Lane and East Dulwich Grove weren't full of rush hour traffic beforehand is laughable.

[Bicknell]

ltns in dulwich not big success for most people Gabe

ed grove and lordship and croxted and south circular now have more traffic. these are roads with schools, shops, GP's, health clinics. bus routes

traffic hasnt gone away. just taken from some roads and put on others