LTN Discussion

[Rockets]

But Duncan this wasn't, to coin the phrase adopted by Cllr Rose, a referendum ;-)

In fact, the so-called pro-LTN councillors went out of their way not to mention LTNs.....

Anyway it seems Rahx3 and Manatee are taking some time-out from the forum so maybe you, or any of the other pro-LTN forumites, can explain what is happening here....

"Traffic has been rising across Southwark since the end of the 2021 COVID-19 lockdown, and was at 92% of pre-COVID levels in November 2021 at count points in the north of the borough, and above pre-COVID levels on the TfL network near Dulwich" - Southwark Council Dashboard.

[Angelina]

We really need to reduce unnecessary journeys.

There are far too many cars on the roads and it's just people's behaviour and the belief that driving a car is a right.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But like the masons, the cyclists tend to have one

> trouser leg rolled up to protect it from the chain

> oil and all have a secret hand shake (although in

> the cyclists case it seems to be a moving "O"aimed

> at car drivers)

Top 10 joke on EDF - instant hall of fame status! 🤣🤣🤣

[DuncanW]

'Honest(Y) at last' is what you said - I don't mind at all being called honest... maybe you could clarify what you meant by 'at last' - I inferred that meant: not so, up until now. Please feel free to correct me.

I'm sorry you don't like the phrase 'overwhelming victory' - It's factually accurate. I suspect it's the actuality of it that rankles more than the phrase... but everyone needs a way to vent, I guess.

heartblock Wrote:

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> I called you honest, but if that offends...

>

> "the overwhelming victory of the pro-LTN

> councillors"

>

> and yes this does read as an unpleasant take in my

> eyes, considering the pain caused and I'm happy to

> be honest and say that. No one has been victorious

> in this poor, poor and sadly handled process.

[heartblock]

I agree Angelina, that's why I walk and take public transport for all my local and London journeys.

Unfortunately having schools that have a catchment area outside of Southwark let alone Dulwich and a very poor PTAL in the same catchment means that parents drive very large cars and park illegally on EDG, in bus lanes, on double yellow lines and on pavements - when driving one child to Alleyn's, JAGs and although Judith Kerr is a smaller catchment, the number of parents who drive their one child is hugely impactful for both Half Moon Lane and local traffic - and this is the issue - active travel in ED and DV was always high, the traffic issues are car users outside of the borough and some parents inside the area. LTNs have not made any difference to these people, apart from some of the car driving parents returning to a leafy house outside of this area.... and probably campaigning to keep their LTN on their gated road.

So much hypocrisy in this discussion.

[heartblock]

The honesty at last was for your comment, it was not relating to any other comment you have made in the past (it relates to me asking for some 'truth' from people who have gaslighted me - that does not include you). So apologies if that is what you thought.

The local elections were not a referendum on LTNs - many people voted Labour as a signal to Johnson about their disgust of Tory policy, many of my neighbours who hate the LTN traffic on EDG voted Labour, despite being very much affected by the additional congestion and pollution.

Crowing over 'victory' in terms of pro-LTN neighbours are winners is as I say offensive in my eyes - you have a right to offend and I am allowed to be offended. I think that considering those adversely affected by LTNs might, just might be a far better take on the situation. Something like - yes the LTNs are here to stay, now what can we do to help people living on EDG, Croxted and LL... rather than 'Victory!' meaning the overcoming of an enemy or antagonist .... which my friends who are nurses, teachers, care-workers, cleaners and retired are not.

[Waseley]

Can you explain what you mean by gaslighting - it seems to be a common response for some where you don't like the opposing views.

And interestingly you have hit the nail on the head, child being driven to school. For some the school comes above the ease of getting there. Some will move home to be closer to the school of their choice. If you need to drive your kid to school why oh why aren't you lift sharing with other families. Some honesty here would be appreciated even if it "why should I?"

[first mate]

?

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm curious what Manatee and Rx3 will come up

> with.

>

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Manatee - maybe you can use your obvious wisdom

> in

> > such analysis and help Rahx3 answer the

> question,

> > what do you think is happening here:

> >

> > "Traffic has been rising across Southwark since

> > the end of the 2021 COVID-19 lockdown, and was

> at

> > 92% of pre-COVID levels in November 2021 at

> count

> > points in the north of the borough, and above

> > pre-COVID levels on the TfL network near

> Dulwich"

> >

> > Like my old primary school teacher I think I

> know

> > what is happening but will let you try to

> > determine the answer for

> yourselves.....remember,

> > according to the council there are 21,000 less

> > journeys happening in the Dulwich area....

[Jenijenjen]

Heartblock: You see anyone who is pro LTN as your enemy so don't be surprised if this cuts both ways. Your constant wild accusations that everyone who is pro LTN lives in one of the closed roads and are in favour of them for their own selfish reasons is just plain wrong, frankly antagonistic, not backed up by any kind of evidence and has the effect of increasing support for the LTNs. Well done.

[heartblock]

Mmmh I don't drive any children to school, because I don't have any .. and yes school buses and car sharing, but as the majority live outside of ED and don't give a s**t about residents on EDG they drive.

Opposing view - great, love talking to people with different views and have changed my mind about many subjects in my 50+ years on this planet.

?gaslighting? to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions.

So I say my road is now more congested than before the 5xLTNs in my 35 years of living on the same road and you say........ your reality, perception and memory is false.

I think the cap fits.

[heartblock]

Actually Jenjenjen, I don't see them as my enemy, but I do think some posters do live in an LTN, but not all.

You see by putting your words in my mouth you are manipulating what I say to get me to question my own reality, memory and perception.

Thank you for giving both myself and Waseley an almost textbook example of gaslighting.

[heartblock]

First mate - having asked my academic colleagues in quantum theory - this case of 21000 less cars while car volumes have increased in Dulwich/ED is a case of Schr?dinger cat state paradox, so a "quantum traffic count" can be both increased and decreased, and in two places at once.

[Jenijenjen]

The language you use certainly is that of describing an enemy. I haven't put any words in your mouth, just reacted to the words you've posted on this forum. As Waseley has implied, someone having opposing views to yourself is not gaslighting nor is it trolling, that other social media term frequently misused.

ETA: Is accusing someone of gaslighting when in fact they're not gaslighting at all a form of gaslighting in itself ?

[heartblock]

No the language I use is not describing anyone as my enemy, but that is what you are telling everyone and me. In fact when I say I don't think you are my enemy, you come back telling me that is what I think.

It is classic gaslighting and again -well done for such an excellent example.

Maybe if there had been a referendum and the LTNs were proved to be unpopular by the majority and I had claimed 'victory' over my pro-LTN neighbours - I think you would have a very strong justification to say that I thought my pro-LTN neighbours were my 'enemy'.

I think that the pro-LTN policy that the Dulwich and ED LTNs reduce traffic and pollution remains unproven and that on my road and Croxted it has in fact contributed to increased congestion and pollution at peak hours, that has increased from pre-LTN times. I would like congestion and peak pollution levels NOx, PM 2 and PM 10 measured in Charter School sports ground, Tessa Jowell grounds and along EDG.

I don't think my neighbours are my enemy, I would just like them to help other neighbours on the non-LTN roads to pressure Southwark to monitor peak pollution, be guided by the recent WHO clean-air quality guidelines and come up with solutions to reduce congestion and pollution on these residential roads - how about it Jenjenjen?

[Jenijenjen]

So just to be clear anything I post that is not in accordance with your views is gaslighting.

Thanks for that.

[exdulwicher]

I don't think my neighbours are my enemy, I would just like them to help other neighbours on the non-LTN roads to pressure Southwark to monitor peak pollution, be guided by the recent WHO clean-air quality guidelines and come up with solutions to reduce congestion and pollution on these residential roads - how about it Jenjenjen?

We're back at the same point which has been argued to death on here and the previous thread.

What would you do to achieve this that is

a) cheap (cos TfL and councils have no money)

b) quick and easy to implement and change

c) aims to reduce car journeys and boost active travel journeys

??

We've had suggestions of opening up all roads to "spread the pollution around" which, in the dog turd analogy of a few pages ago is the equivalent to finding dog poo on your doorstep and then deciding to smear bits of it over all your neighbours doorsteps as well because "fairness".

We've had suggestions of trams and tube line extensions, which cost billions, take decades to come to fruition and cause lots of disruption (although yes, I agree that public transport must always be improved).

There's been some slightly more reasonable suggestions of better coach management for the schools although the council has very little control over any of that since the schools are private and the coaches are run by an arm's length foundation, not by public sector.

Better bus service - again, not bad but there are limited streets you can run buses down and adding buses to congested roads doesn't work since they just get stuck in traffic; you need to reduce traffic, add in better bus lanes and so on before you can add more buses to the mix.

And I referenced this a page or so ago:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213624X22000281

which concluded that the two most effective measures to reduce traffic are

charging systems (so congestion charging, workplace parking charges, ULEZ)

access restrictions (school streets, LTNs)

But go ahead - if you have any genuine suggestions that meet all those factors above, go for it.

I have seen this on Twitter a few times, basically saying that LTNs are great for those inside them and people on boundary roads will eventually get used to more pollution and traffic.. but at least this is the first honest pro-LTN response.

I don't think Waseley meant it the way you took it - you seem to have taken it as an "I'm alright Jack, sod the rest of you" whereas I think it's meant more as an acknowledgment that people get used to change quite slowly so some of the restrictions take a while to influence behaviour change and modal shift. There are actually mathematical models about the number of people it takes to influence change - some relating to traffic, some in various social situations such as a person collapsing in the street - you get people passing by, not wanting to be involved, thinking that someone else will sort it, before eventually someone will stop to help and, emboldened by that, others stop. There are interesting social experiments that have been done on that but it can relate to traffic too.

However it has to be forced - people have to see that walking or scooting for 5 mins to school is better than sitting in a car for 10 mins and it takes time for that to penetrate.

This is often the problem with active travel interventions. Things get worse before they get better. If you build a new road, things get better before gradually regressing to at least where they were before, if not worse. There are countless models describing that.

[heartblock]

So Jenjenjen -

1. I do not think you or any pro-LTN activist is my enemy, but you tell me that is what I think. Do you not consider that to be trying to get me to question my own reality?

2. I would not use the word 'Victory' as in the post from pro-LTN Duncan in the post above at 11;12am as I do not think their are any enemies ('Even if the forum continues, which I hope it does, there must come a point when this dialogue across its many threads becomes redundant. You would think that point would have been the overwhelming victory of the pro-LTN councillors in the election last week.. but maybe we need to allow a bit of time for the reality to settle in')

3. Are you going to help other neighbours on the non-LTN roads to pressure Southwark to monitor peak pollution, be guided by the recent WHO clean-air quality guidelines and come up with solutions to reduce congestion and pollution on these residential roads

4. I am interested in your views about LTNs, opposing or otherwise about air quality and monitoring of pollution, in fact anything to do with LTNs in East Dulwich, but posts about what you think I think isn't quite the same..is it

Many thanks back.

[heartblock]

Exdulwicher

Road pricing seems a great idea, until one starts to think about inequality, so like ULEZ the rich will be able to drive and the less well off will not, so there is an inequality issue. I suppose if tied up with really excellent public transport. Ideally public transport entirely paid through taxation so free at the point of use, then the very wealthy would pay more tax for a free at the point of use service? Everyone will jump on that bus!

I wouldn't have any private schools - that would immediately get rid of that one, so all children go to excellent local, publicly funded schools, in the meantime take charitable status away unless 80% of children come by PT, coach or active travel.

And stop digging up fossil fuels..

But then I'm a very green, very lefty, lefty.

[heartblock]

the trouble is it isn't a case of 'However it has to be forced - people have to see that walking or scooting for 5 mins to school is better than sitting in a car for 10 mins and it takes time for that to penetrate' Local active travel is incredibly high already in Ed DV.

Because they do walk and cycle to school if living close by - Charter school kids almost all by PT - it's the wide catchment area of certain schools and I'm afraid to say certain demographic of parents - large BMW, Volvo, Mercs bring the precious ones to Alleyn's and JAGs. I pass them parked on Half moon Lane - park car, get precious one out with scooter and do the last 4 mins by 'active travel' or the pavement parkers on EDG with the engine running for the air-con in Summer and the heater in Winter....

Charter School kids know what a bus is...

[Jenijenjen]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So Jenjenjen -

>

> 1. I do not think you or any pro-LTN activist is

> my enemy, but you tell me that is what I think. Do

> you not consider that to be trying to get me to

> question my own reality?

>

I have no idea what you think and I really wouldn?t like to see inside your brain, or anyone else?s, to discover what they?re thinking. I only have your choice of words which have created an impression.

[first mate]

Aside from trying every which way to get Heartblock to admit to saying things he/she has not said I am wondering why there has been no direct reply to the queries raised repeatedly by Rockets, HB an others:

what do you think is happening here:

> >

> > "Traffic has been rising across Southwark since

> > the end of the 2021 COVID-19 lockdown, and was

> at

> > 92% of pre-COVID levels in November 2021 at

> count

> > points in the north of the borough, and above

> > pre-COVID levels on the TfL network near

> Dulwich"

> >

> > Like my old primary school teacher I think I

> know

> > what is happening but will let you try to

> > determine the answer for

> yourselves.....remember,

> > according to the council there are 21,000 less

> > journeys happening in the Dulwich area....

Jenijenjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> heartblock Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > So Jenjenjen -

> >

> > 1. I do not think you or any pro-LTN activist

> is

> > my enemy, but you tell me that is what I think.

> Do

> > you not consider that to be trying to get me to

> > question my own reality?

> >

>

> I have no idea what you think and I really

> wouldn?t like to see inside your brain, or anyone

> else?s, to discover what they?re thinking. I only

> have your choice of words which have created an

> impression.

[heartblock]

'I have no idea what you think and I really wouldn?t like to see inside your brain, or anyone else?s, to discover what they?re thinking. I only have your choice of words which have created an impression.'

Well I suppose one could listen to Rahx3 when they say impressions and perception do not matter - only facts, I don't actually agree with them by the way.

Well in the spirit of neighbourly love, I apologise if I have given you an impression to make you think I hate, dislike or think anyone in this thread is an enemy, despite me having a differing opinion to them.

i have told you what I am thinking, I don't consider anybody to be my enemy or foe, in fact I believe that ignorance of oneself is the only enemy, and the uncontrolled emotions that arise from that ignorance.

[heartblock]

First mate..I told you "quantum traffic count" can be both increased and decreased, and in two places at once.

But yes - can someone really explain to us...please?

[Angelina]

I am going to miss the forum for conversations such as this

[heartblock]

Ha ha... I know, it's a break from marking dissertations... You know EDF is great isn't it. A historical document of neighbourly irritation, acts of kindness and lost cats!