LTN Discussion

[Nigello]

A red/white sign has been put up at Dulwich Library but I am confused as to why, as it gives times yet we all know that if you go down Court Lane or Woodwarde you can't get onto Dulwich Village anyway. Is this sign, then, referring to another time-restricted route?

[Moovart]

That sign has been there since the start.

It's warning you that you can't cut through to Townley road as Townley road has restricted times to pass through to east Dulwich Grove. This is similar to the warning at the top of Court lane. You could go down court lane and back out through eynella road by the library but you can't continue to calton avenue, beauval or dovercourt road and then go left on Townley.

[Bic Basher]

Regarding the Wood Vale calming scheme, this will push traffic onto Honor Oak Road which has a primary school on it and social housing.

So basically Southwark will be pushing their traffic issues onto Lewisham streets.

*slow clap*

[eastdulwichhenry]

CPR Dave Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> very little pollution and no road traffic accidents

> whatsoever.

Do you really imagine that children are immune from being injured by cars just because they're driving autonomously? Or that Melbourne Grove will be a safe and pleasant cycling route if it's full of traffic, merely because said traffic is computer-driven and electric?

However fancy the technology becomes, our streets are still going to be narrow, congested and potentially dangerous, so the solution has to be to tackle it at source, by reducing private car use overall. Perhaps then we can start looking at even better ways to ferry people around in a sensible manner.

[Moovart]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Regarding the Wood Vale calming scheme, this will

> push traffic onto Honor Oak Road which has a

> primary school on it and social housing.

>

> So basically Southwark will be pushing their

> traffic issues onto Lewisham streets.

>

> *slow clap*

What's the plan for Wood Vale?

[JohnL]

eastdulwichhenry Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> CPR Dave Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > very little pollution and no road traffic

> accidents

> > whatsoever.

>

> Do you really imagine that children are immune

> from being injured by cars just because they're

> driving autonomously? Or that Melbourne Grove will

> be a safe and pleasant cycling route if it's full

> of traffic, merely because said traffic is

> computer-driven and electric?

>

> However fancy the technology becomes, our streets

> are still going to be narrow, congested and

> potentially dangerous, so the solution has to be

> to tackle it at source, by reducing private car

> use overall. Perhaps then we can start looking at

> even better ways to ferry people around in a

> sensible manner.

I envisioned speed enforced by computer - the traffic will also ride an equal distance apart and be going at the same speed without stops effectively in slow trains. They'll sort of be like packets in a routing protocol :)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190519191641.htm

[Chick]

This must be tongue in cheek. Rocket back packs?

CPR Dave Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I do think they'll question why we did so little

> to discourage car use generally."

>

> I disagree with that too.

>

> In about 15 years from now cars will be fully

> automated and electric. The internal combustion

> engine will be a museum piece. There will be very

> little pollution and no road traffic accidents

> whatsoever.

>

> And in the future beyond that people will use

> personal aviation machines which will no doubt

> still irritate all the penny farthing fetishists.

>

> But you can't hold back progress. It's innate and

> essential to our survival.

[Bic Basher]

Moovart Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bic Basher Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Regarding the Wood Vale calming scheme, this

> will

> > push traffic onto Honor Oak Road which has a

> > primary school on it and social housing.

> >

> > So basically Southwark will be pushing their

> > traffic issues onto Lewisham streets.

> >

> > *slow clap*

>

>

> What's the plan for Wood Vale?

They want to increase the height of the speed humps, remove on-street parking and traffic islands for raised roads which will slow the traffic down as the council isn't happy about it being used as a rat-run to connect to the South Circular.

So while it's not a closure, it's a traffic calming scheme. However I'd debate that the section of Underhill Road that runs parallel to Wood Vale has more traffic issues, especially since the LTN was introduced as cars avoid the queue on LL to Dulwich Common, especially during the peaks than Wood Vale where the traffic is down the A205 end of the road of cars waiting to turn left.

[KidKruger]

I wonder what the plan is for CP Rd, it?s used much more heavily since LTNs implemented, seems to be a short cut now for drivers not wanting to suffer LL congestion caused by traffic avoiding LTNs.

I actually saw a passenger coach driving down today 😳

[Rockets]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In about 15 years from now cars will be fully

> automated and electric. The internal combustion

> engine will be a museum piece. There will be very

> little pollution and no road traffic accidents

> whatsoever.

>

> And in the future beyond that people will use

> personal aviation machines which will no doubt

> still irritate all the penny farthing fetishists.

>

> Fully automated cars have been "10-15 years away"

> for about 35 years now. They're still "10-15 years

> away". Yes, you've got cars that have a high

> degree of automation built in and test cars have

> done full laps of race circuits but there's

> currently nothing close to full automation in an

> urban environment for consumer use.

>

> It's another way of kicking the can down the road,

> the idea that we don't need to do anything now

> because in x years time everything will be

> perfect, solved for us by the power of technology.

> Which I said back on Page 7...

Not entirely true Ex. The electrification of cars, and the threat posed by Tesla, is proving to be a very good catalyst for car manufacturers to embrace ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems) and other systems, that accelerate the roll-out of automated driving functions. The scale goes from 0 (parking sensors) up to 5 (no steering wheel) and manufacturers are starting to roll-out level 3 systems. A Tesla can pretty much drive itself right now (granted not in a city environment) and you can even summon it from it's parking space if it is less than 200 feet away.

So it's coming - granted it has taken longer than many had hoped and it will take a long time to establish and will need to get buy-in from the likes of TFL and local authorities to put in some of the infrastructure required to make it work at level 5 (where your car/bus/van/lorry will communicate with everything and everyone around it) but it's coming.

Of course it is not an overnight solution and I don't think anyone is suggesting we should do nothing until those systems arrive but they are coming and they will drastically reduce the number of accidents, injuries and deaths on the roads.

I do think, however, that councils and the likes of TFL should be doing a lot more to embrace electrification of vehicles as every fossil-fuel vehicle they encourage people to get rid of will reduce pollution far more efficiently and effectively than LTNs will ever manage to do.

[ed26]

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the LTN stuff as I walk far more than I drive. But I read up on it a bit last week after the South Circular was closed. It seems batsh*t crazy to close off so many local roads to improve the conditions of a few households on said roads, while the conditions on the through roads have become hugely worse - for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. Did anyone really think it through?

I walk up Crystal Palace Road almost every day, and occasionally drive when I have a car load. The stretch between The Actress and The Great Exhibition is rammed now and all it takes is for a John Lewis sized van to try to get up there and the whole thing grinds to a halt. So when I drive, I occasionally head around Darrell or Hindmans Road, so how long will it be before they want the roads closed off, and then the traffic moves across to Barry Road and so on? It won't be long before there's only a few through roads in the whole area.

And who on earth thought that the closure in Dulwich Village is a good idea? Dulwich Village streets that are only accessible from East Dulwich? Utter madness. I'm sure this has all been said before but I can't be bothered to read through hundreds of pages of arguments. Just my two-penneth.

[heartblock]

yep ed26 - exactly, but now you will be told you are just imaging what you can see with your own eyes...

[exdulwicher]

Not entirely true Ex. The electrification of cars, and the threat posed by Tesla, is proving to be a very good catalyst for car manufacturers to embrace ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems) and other systems, that accelerate the roll-out of automated driving functions. The scale goes from 0 (parking sensors) up to 5 (no steering wheel) and manufacturers are starting to roll-out level 3 systems. A Tesla can pretty much drive itself right now (granted not in a city environment) and you can even summon it from it's parking space if it is less than 200 feet away.

I've got an egg here Rockets, can you tell me how to cook it please...

;-)

[ed26]

Ha. I'll try not to get sucked in.

But.... as I have seen on CPR....

Driving - obvious. It's far busier than it used to be. There's always been a bit of congestion around the nursery but it's the streams of cars that is the problem. When 10 vehicles going one way come across 10 vehicles going the other way and one is a bit too wide or one driver refuses to pull in a bit (I've never understood that) then it all grinds to a halt.

Cyclists - it's got busier due to the Spine route and people returning to work in the City. I guess many of these are just passing through and not local residents but they weave in and out of the waiting traffic, cycling on the wrong side of the road when there's traffic coming down the other way, and try to squeeze through gaps while the cars are trying to manoeuvre into spaces to let traffic pass the other way. So the LTN has made it more dangerous for those cyclists.

Pedestrians - it's just not as nice walking up CPR as it used to be. Maybe I'm comparing a cold grotty winter day with a lovely spring morning but it's just not a pleasant experience walking up a road next to gridlocked traffic with cars belching out fumes and builders shouting obscenities at each other and blasting their horns. Makes me want to drive.

I know we need to do something to reduce unnecessary car journeys but this isn't it. It's just funnelling traffic that didn't previously need to be on CPR onto CPR and p*ssing everyone off.

[heartblock]

You should try walking down ED Grove at 8:00am in the morning - stationary traffic all the way down the road, cyclists and scooters on the pavement - just an unpleasant walk now, used to love my walk to Herne Hill station - now some mornings I feel very asthmatic. So many school kids walking to school in this pollution too. I can't understand what this Council is thinking, it's obviously diverting traffic onto other roads.

Road pricing yes, better local public transport yes, but making dirty air ghettos - no!

[march46]

When was traffic on East Dulwich Grove at 8am ever not bad Heartblock? You paint a picture that it was so much better before, but I remember very clearly it always being bad.

You have your view, I have mine - they differ but thankfully we have evidence in the form of traffic data - which shows traffic is significantly reduced for the largest section, between Melbourne Grove and Townley (where the Charter school, health centre and Dutch Estate is).

[Artemis]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You should try walking down ED Grove at 8:00am in

> the morning - stationary traffic all the way down

> the road, cyclists and scooters on the pavement -

> just an unpleasant walk now, used to love my walk

> to Herne Hill station - now some mornings I feel

> very asthmatic. So many school kids walking to

> school in this pollution too. I can't understand

> what this Council is thinking, it's obviously

> diverting traffic onto other roads.

> Road pricing yes, better local public transport

> yes, but making dirty air ghettos - no!

Yes. Yet again and again we are told that the LTNs have made walking ?easier? and ?better?. I never found any difficulty walking around the area (if I go for a ?leisure? or ?exercise? walk, I would choose a park - if I need to get anywhere for practical reasons, it?s very difficult to limit the journey to one of the LTN roads as everything ?useful? (shops, medical centres, public transport) inevitably involves going on or via a road that now has more traffic. Therefore, walking it smellier, more unhealthy and worse. In my view.

[DulvilleRes]

The LTN's don't seem to be having any negative impact on house prices on East Dulwich Grove. Average price of a property sold in June last year was ?717,000. The average price is now ?808,950.( Source: Zoopla) Whatever the rights and wrongs of official Southwark data on traffic levels post LTN v those who dispute it in the anti LTN lobby, some people are betting heavy on it not being an overwhelming problem.

[ed26]

we have evidence in the form of traffic

> data - which shows traffic is significantly

> reduced for the largest section, between Melbourne

> Grove and Townley (where the Charter school,

> health centre and Dutch Estate is).

Is that because all the traffic that used to use Townley Road / Melbourne Grove / East Dulwich Grove to avoid Lordship Lane now goes down Crystal Palace Road instead?

[goldilocks]

Ah - Heartblock's parallel universe where East Dulwich Grove wasn't busy / standstill at 8am.... its been a while!

[heartblock]

"we have evidence in the form of traffic data - which shows traffic is significantly reduced for the largest section, between Melbourne Grove and Townley (where the Charter school, health centre and Dutch Estate is)"

Evidence - mmhhh nope I live in that area and it is definitely worse, so the 'data' is not correct for 'that' section. You have got it wrong anyway - Charter/Health Centre is in the old Dulwich Hosp site and isn't at Townley - that central stretch is about 10 metres and doesn't include Townley or the Dutch estate.

Alleyn's is at Townley - so you really don't know the area very well at all - do you?

Try living here in the same flat for 35 years and you might have a bit more knowledge of this road.

[heartblock]

Aaaah the personal insults begin. Now I live in a parallel universe and I'm so dumb I can't tell the difference between moving traffic and standstill traffic...

[Bic Basher]

Artemis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> heartblock Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You should try walking down ED Grove at 8:00am

> in

> > the morning - stationary traffic all the way

> down

> > the road, cyclists and scooters on the pavement

> -

> > just an unpleasant walk now, used to love my

> walk

> > to Herne Hill station - now some mornings I

> feel

> > very asthmatic. So many school kids walking to

> > school in this pollution too. I can't

> understand

> > what this Council is thinking, it's obviously

> > diverting traffic onto other roads.

> > Road pricing yes, better local public transport

> > yes, but making dirty air ghettos - no!

>

> Yes. Yet again and again we are told that the

> LTNs have made walking ?easier? and ?better?. I

> never found any difficulty walking around the area

> (if I go for a ?leisure? or ?exercise? walk, I

> would choose a park - if I need to get anywhere

> for practical reasons, it?s very difficult to

> limit the journey to one of the LTN roads as

> everything ?useful? (shops, medical centres,

> public transport) inevitably involves going on or

> via a road that now has more traffic. Therefore,

> walking it smellier, more unhealthy and worse. In

> my view.

Lordship Lane between the Library and Dulwich Common in the evening peak is no longer a pleasant walk. The traffic has always been an issue in the PM, but worse since the LTN. The first thing that strikes me is the smell of the fumes from all the displaced traffic that used to go down Court Lane.

[heartblock]

Run away ed26..before they tell you it's all in your imagination....

[heartblock]

Your just imaging that Bic Basher...because the mysterious and suspect organisation the DA....tremble with fear as I speak that name...has filled your head with angry bees!