LTN Discussion

[first mate]

Now Earl, calm down. It is hard for you to understand that many of us will not willingly move on from what has been a pretty disgraceful and underhand performance by Southwark Labour. Note, as Rockets said, phase 3 of 'Vanity Square' only in place now.

Spin away, but this is not going away.

[alice]

Your exasperation is laughable. you somehow find the argument for blocking a major East West route through the  richest part of the borough a logical act. Ridiculous. 
 

[Rockets]

20 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Just drive round, it takes a few minutes longer.

Here we have an acknowledgement of why some of us have challenged the council since the get-go on whether these measures actually work or whether they displace traffic via another route and actually increase pollution.

 

The circle is now complete!

[Spartacus]

25 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

 Just drive round, it takes a few minutes longer.

And when there's an accident on the south circular, then there's gridlock in the area creating more pollution. 

But I take it from your reaction that you are not confident that putting the question to the vote will go in favour of the square.... 

 

[DulvilleRes]

Great to be reminded of the Dulwich Village demo photo dating back to 2021, at which the anti LTN lobby claimed there were a 1000 people in attendance, when barely a third of that number actually turned up. Since then there have been a litany of factual inaccuracies and misleading information from the anti - LTN lobby, which really does not inspire confidence in One Dulwich's unsubstantiated claim of widespread support.

I'm puzzled that some of One Dulwich's cheerleaders on this thread are so blindly confident in their assertion that they have 2000 registered supporters, when at the same time they tell us they have no idea who is behind One Dulwich and who funds them. The lack of diligence when it comes to establishing facts is baffling. All the evidence is the anti LTN lobby is a vocal minority - would be local Conservative councillors stood in the last local elections on virtually this single issue, and were soundly beaten. Funnily enough, it is these same names who keep cropping up when it comes to formally asking questions of the council on the local traffic issues discussed on these threads. Could it be that the anti LTN 'crusade' is in part fuelled by a hidden political agenda?

[first mate]

But if such a tiny minority against, as you persist in telling us, why do you keep popping up to repeat this? Why bother? It seems a number of you are putting an awful lot of energy into trying to shut this tiny vocal minority down. It doesn't really add up, neither does the frequently parroted conspiracy theory that objectors are all closet Tories being directed by a shadowy organisation that has some as yet undefined political agenda.

Another theory is that at least some pro LTN posters on here who are not local are LCC operatives with a political agenda of their own? 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Not so much a vocal minority as a slightly pathologically obsessive minority. Imagine still being fixated about a change of road layout and the creation of a small pedestrian space outside the shops / cafes (enjoyed by nearly everyone) more than 4 years on. 

You complain about the cost, but it's largely the result of all the ridiculous obstacles that the council has to navigate to try and appease the network of 'One' groups, and associated online 'war on motorist' fanatics. Indeed you’re now calling for a change to the whole system of local government and referenda on all local decisions - perfectly rational 🤣. And again on the cost, you would have the whole thing ripped out so that a pleasant pedestrian area can be replaced by a line of idling cars?

I genuinely think you may need to consider moving on. There are some more important things in the world than your 'right' to shave maybe 3 minutes off a car trip to the village. Perhaps just suck it up, or like many others, switch to walking or cycling to the village instead. 

Edited yesterday at 09:07 by Earl Aelfheah

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

23 minutes ago, first mate said:

Another theory is that at least some pro LTN posters on here who are not local are LCC operatives

That is a theory - a very particular type of theory, in fact: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Do you speak to your real life family and friends about your concerns that the London Cycling Campaign has taken over government and has deployed secret operatives to argue with you online? What do they think about it?

🦎 🦎 🦎 

[Spartacus]

@Earl Aelfheah @Dogkennelhillbilly lets see if it is a minority by requesting a proper referendum in the local area as per my earlier post. 

If, as you seem to imply, that the majority support the square, then threads like this will close as a result.

Dare you risk it? 

[Rockets]

26 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

You complain about the cost, but it's largely the result of all the ridiculous obstacles that the council has to navigate to try and appease the network of 'One' groups, and associated online 'war on motorist' fanatics.

Oh dear...now you really are living in fantasyland........you mean things like the objections tabled by emergency services because the measures were putting lives at risk (that the council ignored for nigh on a year)? The only ridiculous obstacle in that case were the planters blocking emergency vehicle access - I mean, who thought that was a good idea? That cost a sizeable chunk of cash to put right (once the council finally relented).

You're trying, desperately and rather hopelessly, to rewrite history.

 

As is DulvilleRes.

1 hour ago, DulvilleRes said:

Great to be reminded of the Dulwich Village demo photo dating back to 2021, at which the anti LTN lobby claimed there were a 1000 people in attendance, when barely a third of that number actually turned up.

Were you there DulvilleRes - there was a huge turnout - especially for one you think is just a small vocal minority? 

I am with firstmate and I love the fact the pro-LTN usual-suspects put so much time and  energy trying to convince people that it is a small vocal minority and get themselves in such a lather; yet actual evidence presented to them (consultation responses, protests, their upset at posters people put in their windows, the number of people trying to attend council meetings on the matter, the vandalism of signs put in people's gardens) is so compelling that it is anything but a small minority.

The obsession as to who is behind OneDulwich clearly indicates that they are still a thorn in the side for those on the Pro-LTN side - and that makes me chuckle. If it really was a small vocal minority people would have lost interest by now. 

But they haven't. And that clearly still really angers some people. 

 

 

[first mate]

1 hour ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

That is a theory - a very particular type of theory, in fact: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Do you speak to your real life family and friends about your concerns that the London Cycling Campaign has taken over government and has deployed secret operatives to argue with you online? What do they think about it?

🦎 🦎 🦎 

I just thought I'd provide a counter conspiracy theory to the equally ludicrous stuff pedalled on here about closet Tories and the secretive  and shadowy organisation that some think is directing them.

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Not so much a vocal minority as a slightly pathologically obsessive minority. Imagine still being fixated about a change of road layout and the creation of a small pedestrian space outside the shops / cafes (enjoyed by nearly everyone) more than 4 years on. 

You complain about the cost, but it's largely the result of all the ridiculous obstacles that the council has to navigate to try and appease the network of 'One' groups, and associated online 'war on motorist' fanatics. Indeed you’re now calling for a change to the whole system of local government and referenda on all local decisions - perfectly rational 🤣. And again on the cost, you would have the whole thing ripped out so that a pleasant pedestrian area can be replaced by a line of idling cars?

I genuinely think you may need to consider moving on. There are some more important things in the world than your 'right' to shave maybe 3 minutes off a car trip to the village. Perhaps just suck it up, or like many others, switch to walking or cycling to the village instead. 

Hahaha😂 Pots and Kettles Earl. Try all you like, go for every angle you can, as I said, there are enough locals now questioning these measures, this is not going away. If, as you keep protesting, this is a done deal with only a few voices against why are you so obsessed with trying your absolute best to shut it down. Why do you care?

As you already know, many of us on here already cycle. Do try to get your facts straight.

Another fact check ( goodness you are getting a bit Trumpian in your attempts to spin and derail) the suggestion is to have a referendum on this only, not on everything. That's because the Council were not mandated to waste millions on 'Vanity Square'.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

2 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Dare you risk it? 

Fine by me.  🤷‍♂️

Online (which is to say here and Mr OneDulwich's blog) there is a small number of monomaniacs raging about closure of a side road 4 years ago, spreading increasingly weird conspiracy theories about Marxist-cyclist takeovers, and claiming to speak on behalf of a furious, ignored majority.

None of that is reflected in the real world. The Tories were basically a single issue party against LTNs at the last local elections and they got pumped. The Tory Mayoral candidate for London pinned her whole campaign on being anti-ULEZ, anti-LTN and anti-woke, and she got pumped too. There is no sign in the real world that this supposed majority of people really upset about a road being closed exists.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/ImperialMeas/

[Rockets]

14 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

None of that is reflected in the real world.

* except in every local consultation the council has run on the issue

[first mate]

36 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

There is no sign in the real world that this supposed majority of people really upset about a road being closed exists.

So why do you and a few others spend so much time on here trying to counter all and any anti local LTN and 'Vanity Square' sentiment? Why are you so seemingly pathologically obsessed with trying to close down what you say is a non issue, that you say is four years old and nobody cares about? You must admit it doesn't make sense?

[raptortruckman69]

You don't understand.

It's clearly the silent majority who do not want these restrictions on traffic, because we understand that cars are important.

When we win a referendum that will finally prove to all but the most dense that the silent majority is against. Until that point there are too many confounding factors so no loss is evidence the silent majority don't exist.

No one was going to vote Tory after what they did, and I'm sure people had good reasons for voting against the lib Dems when they ran on an anti LTN position at the last locals. I expect people assumed they would be untrustworthy  flip flop on LTNs and indeed they did after getting hammered.

Edited yesterday at 13:16 by raptortruckman69
edited for clarity of point

[alice]

You’re perpetuating this myth that the people who are against blocking that junction are totally pro car. 

[raptortruckman69]

Yeah

[Rockets]

Don't respond to Raptortruck - it's someone masquerading as petrol head from the pro-LTN side!!! 😉 

[first mate]

10 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Don't respond to Raptortruck - it's someone masquerading as petrol head from the pro-LTN side!!! 😉 

Surely not. I mean words fail and there was me thinking my spoof conspiracy theory about LCC was far fetched. 

[raptortruckman69]

Haha says the lycra lout

[Earl Aelfheah]

Imagine still being fixated about a change of road layout and the creation of a small pedestrian space outside the shops / cafes (enjoyed by nearly everyone) more than 4 years on… oh we don’t have to 😂

[first mate]

55 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Imagine still being fixated about a change of road layout and the creation of a small pedestrian space outside the shops / cafes (enjoyed by nearly everyone) more than 4 years on… oh we don’t have to 😂

And yet here you are again, Earl, fixated on trying to persuade us that non-mandated junction re-configurations, with phase 3 only just released, costing millions of pounds, are a great idea.

 

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Imagine still being fixated about a change of road layout and the creation of a small pedestrian space outside the shops / cafes (enjoyed by nearly everyone) more than 4 years on… oh we don’t have to 😂

It's good to have a passion in life!!!! 😉 In all seriousness, you should probably be questioning why people do feel so passionately about and why people are still challenging the council over their wastage of millions of pounds of tax-payers money.

 

Some of us are clearly not happy to turn a blind eye to such wastage.

[march46]

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Imagine still being fixated about a change of road layout and the creation of a small pedestrian space outside the shops / cafes (enjoyed by nearly everyone) more than 4 years on… oh we don’t have to 😂

There are literally shovels in the ground, pedestrianising it yet some on here are calling for a referendum on whether it should exist. Time to admit defeat and move on?

[first mate]

I don't see those with serious reservations moving on at all. Momentum against some of these measures as well as dubious council behaviour seems to be building.