LTN Discussion

[alice]

If only Southwark made evidence based decisions. 

[malumbu]

Sorry won't read the Daily Mail which let's face it is totally pro car.  Perhaps you may wish to summarise.  Can you imagine if the Mail ever liked anything pro active travel/reduced motoring?  No I can't either.

[Spartacus]

Here you go mal 

Not the daily mail 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/04/low-traffic-neighbourhood-newcastle-council-ltn-scheme-axe/

Basic story, it didn't work 

[mr.chicken]

Right o the torygraph: the mouthpiece of a government which has decided anti environmentalism is its cause celebre in its latest manufactured culture war.

Funny how so many worldly people who just claim to care so much about poorer Londoners can do little but quote right wing gutter press 🤔

 

 

[malumbu]

In deed Mr C.

Do the Mail and Telegraph ever have positive stories about lefty councils and the environment or health? I doubt it. 

[Spartacus]

Sorry chicken, I forgot you need an unbiased report to believe anything 

Try 

BBC News - Newcastle city council to axe low traffic neighbourhood
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66694402

Funny how so many worldly people who just claim to care so much just dis certain media outlets without bothering to read the story.

To misquote the Bible, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know the truth about LTNs 

 

[exdulwicher]

The basic premise is that it was badly designed - classic case of not listening to the experts, seeing a bit of negative data (caused by the LTN being badly designed) and rather than investigate, modify etc, they just panicked and ripped it all out. 

[Spartacus]

Ex, isn't that the problem with most LTNs 

Badly designed ? 

[heartblock]

Well Southwark LTNs were certainly not 'designed' - one only has to look at the implementation as a Covid-19 'LTN' put in place due to Tory led emergency powers - Southwark should have followed the example of Ealing and committed  to restoring local democracy by reverting to established processes of public consultation and removing all 'emergency' LTNs.

This should have included an assessment of the impact of any proposed LTNs on traffic levels on the main residential roads in the borough, both in terms of the well-being of the residents who live on them and the impact on public transport and emergency services.

So not designed...

[exdulwicher]

5 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Ex, isn't that the problem with most LTNs 

Badly designed ? 

No.

And if they are, the point is they can be easily tweaked and the trial can continue. What was actually needed in the Newcastle one was an expansion. It covered a couple of residential streets but still allowed rat-running down others so naturally everyone kept using it as a cut through and the opportunity to enable more active travel was never realised.

1 minute ago, heartblock said:

This should have included an assessment of the impact of any proposed LTNs on traffic levels on the main residential roads in the borough, both in terms of the well-being of the residents who live on them and the impact on public transport and emergency services.

So not designed...

They were designed and emergency services are a statutory consultee.

[Spartacus]

Blimey ex 

It's not working so let's expand it. 

Fantastic logic, if we can't mitigate the pain, we will share it. 

Take your blinkers of and smell the failure 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Spartacus

[exdulwicher]

1 minute ago, Spartacus said:

It's not working so let's expand it.

I was talking about that specific case. LTNs are specific to each circumstance - the basic principle works but how each one is implemented has a big effect.

It's why the Loughborough Junction attempt a few years ago failed dramatically, because it was one tiny intervention on its own with no complementary or supporting measures.

[Spartacus]

Don't worry Ex, keep swallowing the councils shilling whilst the rest of us suffer with the LTN failures 

1 hour ago, exdulwicher said:

The basic premise is that it was badly designed - classic case of not listening to the experts

Rewinding your conversation a bit, I thought that you had been banging the drum over the past 18 months about LTNs being designed by experts and people who knew better than the ordinary person in the Street. But now you appear to be saying they aren't. 

Interesting.

[exdulwicher]

38 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Don't worry Ex, keep swallowing the councils shilling whilst the rest of us suffer with the LTN failures 

Rewinding your conversation a bit, I thought that you had been banging the drum over the past 18 months about LTNs being designed by experts and people who knew better than the ordinary person in the Street. But now you appear to be saying they aren't. 

Interesting.

I'm talking about that specific case of the Newcastle one. 

It doesn't mean that all LTNs are bad or badly designed, we're referring to that specific one linked to in the news articles previously. 

[Spartacus]

Ah I see, and you also cited the Loughborough Junction attempt, maybe that wasn't designed by your expert too. What about the Wandsworth ones, again not designed by an expert? 

I'm smelling a pattern. 

Maybe, gulp, none of them have been designed by an expert because they were implemented in a hurry by council officers who hadn't implemented one before. 

[heartblock]

An emergency road closure is not design... 

When main residential roads and Red Routes controlled by TFL which carry over 30 per cent of all traffic, have more traffic deliberately forced onto them, the increased congestion and delay for local people is an issue. Naïve polling that points to big majorities favouring LTNs never ask follow-up questions about resulting congestion and delay.

Perhaps most significantly for long-standing Labour supporters, which I used to be - is that Southwark ignored the reality that LTNs primarily displace traffic from the roads of the prosperous to the roads of the poorer and more disadvantaged residents, consider the South Circular and Lordship Lane which already suffer from high levels of air pollution. The additional congestion and stalled traffic offer no alleviation. It is a policy that goes against all the principles of social justice.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by heartblock

[ab29]

Keep up the fight people - ltn must go

[malumbu]

Oh no another call for arms. 

The Beeb includes stories that they think will carry a bit of interest.  Whilst it should be objective based on the current news there is one on a failed LTN and none on successful traffic reduction schemes.   Therefore the Beeb is totally against LTNs.  I also see that they are fully in support of criminalising nitrous oxide use, carrying the government's line without any broader discussion on the downsides (in harm terms it's relatively minor, 'enjoyed' by 100,000s who could now get a criminal record).  Shame there isn't more on Scotland looking to ban disposable vapes which is now well down the Beeb pecking order.

Hmm, I'm just saying that one scheme that was cancelled, heralded by the right wing rags, and picked up by the Beeb isn't a sign that all LTNs are bad and that they will all be cancelled.

Looking forward to the time when this wont be news any more, sooner rather than later so we can put our energies towards more worthy matters.

So no I don't think that there is any fight. 

 

[ab29]

Keep up the fight prople - ltn must go

[Spartacus]

8 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Looking forward to the time when this wont be news any more, sooner rather than later so we can put our energies towards more worthy matters.

 

So are we, when LTNs are recognised as a general failure and removed. 

Nearly 2 years on and well past bedding in time yet our local one is still having massive negative impacts on surrounding streets local buses  and the south circular despite the council tinkering and adjusting it.

Face it Mal, the Dulwich Village LTN is badly designed, a general failure and needs a radical rethink otherwise this type of discussion will roll on and on. 

The council needs to engage properly with residents to design schemes that actually work and don't alienate large swathes of voters. 

[malumbu]

What I see is a failure is the government not tackling air quality when they were ordered by the Supreme Court to sort this ASAP in 2015

What I see if a failure is the government not doing more to persuade the masses to reduce their personal motoring for environmental and health reasons

What I see as a failure is the government not explaining to the masses that from the early 10s new emission standards were not delivering the expected reductions in roadside NO2 and gently pushing those driving in mainly urban environments to move to small petrol cars, on the understanding that diesel still made best sense for those doing long A road and motorway journeys.

What I see as a failure is the Tories not backing their own policy (ie LTNs) and worse still Starmer and Sunak now competing who can be the best friend to the motorists.

What I applaud is the local authorities trying to do something about vehicle emissions, whether they have the ideal solution or not, they are having a go. 

 

[Spartacus]

19 minutes ago, malumbu said:

What I applaud is the local authorities trying to do something about vehicle emissions, whether they have the ideal solution or not, they are having a go. 

 

If only trying was good enough, what they have implemented has caused more congestion thus increasing emissions, not reduced them.

Square that circle off if you will, but by introducing something badly they've made the situation worse.  The heralded traffic evaporation just hasn't happened so more buses, lorries and cars are getting delayed pumping out more of the toxins you so badly want to reduce.  

[march46]

Would love to see your evidence for those statements @Spartacus.

The data shows a different story, as does my lived experience.

[first mate]

You mean the local data that many view as flawed/incomplete and therefore worthless.

The data that when challenged on its accuracy at a meeting with One Dulwich, Cllr McAsh promised to go away and investigate and let them know the findings.

Everyone is still waiting...

[heartblock]

8 hours ago, march46 said:

The data shows a different story, as does my lived experience.

There has been no data published for over a year from Southwark and as it did not measure congestion or traffic travelling below a certain speed (often quoted as 10-20km/hr), only registering traffic that was free-flowing with ATCs placed in incorrect areas (near junctions).

My lived experience along with residents and bus users say different, as does TFL about our bus routes on residential red routes. It is a failed experiment, poorly designed.

The BBC reported Newcastle, but there is also Ealing and Tower Hamlets where LTNs were seen as flawed and creating congestion and pollution in the poorest communities.