LTN Discussion

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Oh I see. It's a conspiracy, involving multiple independent consultants, local authorities, and academics.

Conspiracy is how you might describe it but not a description I would use - a convenient oversight perhaps - there were a few of those during the whole LTN debacle.....;-)

You haven't answered my question on Lordship Lane/Melford Road - do you honestly think the numbers submitted for the Lordship Lane South monitoring point are "99% accurate" on the basis of the position of the strips?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

You’ve described a co-ordinated and wide ranging effort to manipulate / falisfy data, involving independent consultants, multiple local authorities and academics. That’s not a ‘convenient oversight’. Why the constant dissembling? Say what you think

Edited December 7, 2023 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

"Oversight" was the way the council categorised many of the "errors" that happened during this process.

 

And remember the council only started monitoring streets inside the LTNs when the measures went in and had to be forced to monitor streets outside of them.....

[first mate]

Earl, Do you really think that politicians are unlikely to manipulate data when it suits?  It is hardly a huge revelation to consider the possibility that flawed data has been used to prop up the council's desire to implement a range of traffic management measures. 

[legalalien]

seems SL bus drivers not that keen on LTNs

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3bd51122-06d1-4899-97cf-8b1e44397f8e?shareToken=74863a2461509287f7c2f1d2dd426a17

Edited December 8, 2023 by legalalien

[snowy]

The classic combo of Ediz (the unnamed bus driver) and his pal Andrew Ellison

[first mate]

Don't see why asking for anonymity invalidates what is being said? The stakes are high around these traffic measures, there have been reports of intimidation from both sides.

[ab29]

On 08/12/2023 at 18:08, legalalien said:

"So much of what TfL has done seems designed to benefit a privileged minority who live in nice areas or who can cycle. Working people have been forgotten."

Spot on,

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3bd51122-06d1-4899-97cf-8b1e44397f8e?shareToken=74863a2461509287f7c2f1d2dd426a17

 

[tedfudge]

According to a news article bus drivers are talking about striking because of the LTNS as they are making their journey times longer and passengers being threatening and abusive to them and they are finishing late on their shifts , so it us not only people driving cars that are complaining 

A group of London bus drivers are considering striking after being pushed to “breaking point” by delays caused by low-traffic neighbourhoods and bus lanes being removed.

Drivers say cycling policies are making life on the capital’s buses a misery, with one bus taking 55 minutes to travel two stops when it normally takes four minutes, according to The Times.

This was in the evening standard newspaper and website 

[Rockets]

Ha ha...hilarious if true that Dale Foden said the 23 question government questionnaire would take too long to fill out....perhaps the government needs to send Southwark an FOI request to get the info......;-)

https://twitter.com/DulwichCleanAir/status/1735209490436280806?t=kPRrvZtTB4da5RZIzAz5lw&s=19

Edited December 14, 2023 by Rockets

[first mate]

Do we know for sure if Southwark gave refused to respond?

This from the council that happily foist consultation after consultation on residents.

[legalalien]

apparently they are declining on the grounds that it wouldn't benefit residents to fill in the questionnaire, and they think it's a political stunt by central government

 

https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/dulwich/southwark-council-refuses-to-complete-governments-optional-ltn-survey-ahead-of-national-review/

[mrwb]

Hopefully the government pull the plug and remove the legislation allowing LTNs, School streets should stay though as long as they're timed restrictions not blanket. I think Tower Hamlets were correct when they scrapped LTNs:

"They have pushed huge amounts of traffic on to [other] roads … and are simply moving congestion and pollution on to the most vulnerable residents.”

Parts of Dulwich Village have been turned in to almost a gated community where there is no traffic, meanwhile all the extra goes on to the main roads where poorer people typically live.

A disgusting policy, frankly. Let them eat car fumes?

[Kathleen Olander]

12 minutes ago, mrwb said:

Hopefully the government pull the plug and remove the legislation allowing LTNs, School streets should stay though as long as they're timed restrictions not blanket. I think Tower Hamlets were correct when they scrapped LTNs:

"They have pushed huge amounts of traffic on to [other] roads … and are simply moving congestion and pollution on to the most vulnerable residents.”

Parts of Dulwich Village have been turned in to almost a gated community where there is no traffic, meanwhile all the extra goes on to the main roads where poorer people typically live.

A disgusting policy, frankly. Let them eat car fumes?

Thank you, that is exactly right.

[froggy]

Anyone knows how to request a LTN on the street you live in?  Many thanks 

[first mate]

I wonder how many of those in favour of LTNs locally or currently living in one are non car owners and only ever use bicycles or walk? 

[Penguin68]

2 hours ago, first mate said:

I wonder how many of those in favour of LTNs locally or currently living in one are non car owners and only ever use bicycles or walk? 

I think they might also be bus or train users locally, and of course anywhere (almost) else in London, tube users. 

[first mate]

P68, yes I am sure they do use buses, also a form of traffic.  I wonder if these 'traffic purists', who wish to foist LTNs onto others, ever use delivery services, taxis, tradesman/ builders that use vans? My point is extreme and even facetious but I suspect some of these people indulge in traffic when they 'need to', and so far as they are concerned their need is totally justified. However, the needs of others are generally dismissed as mere laziness.

As I have also said before, how many pollute the environment in other ways (flights abroad, use woodburners etc)?

[ab29]

One Dulwich

Campaign Update | 12 Jan It’s been nearly four years since Southwark Council announced the Dulwich LTNs, and since One Dulwich was founded.  Since then, the Council has ignored the results of every consultation, the impact of traffic restrictions on businesses and people living on boundary roads, and the difficulties that disabled and other vulnerable residents have been forced to endure. We’re not the only ones. The most recent LTN to hit the headlines is in Streatham, where residents are suffering the same consequences as us – displaced traffic, delayed buses, wrecked businesses and increased pollution outside schools on boundary roads. More information here, and see the Telegraph report here.  Meanwhile, please help us keep up the pressure on Southwark Council by taking part, if you haven’t already, in the consultation on the redesign of the Dulwich Village junction (Phase 3). We recommend filling in the survey but letting the Council know what you think of their failure to respond to feedback from the local community in the last consultation by ignoring Question 6 and answering “1 (not at all)” to questions 7 – 12. And do please use the comment boxes to remind them that the community rejected the closure of the junction in the original consultation. The deadline is 17 January 2024. With best wishes to all our supporters (and a big welcome to those who have recently signed up). The One Dulwich Team

[march46]

This thread on X/Twitter is a good summary of the positive permanent changes the council is proposing with their latest consultation 

 

[first mate]

Of course, that little utopian picture is totally misleading. The ugly multi-coloured wooden furniture is missing, there are not as many trees or plantings and where are all the dumped Lime bikes, that will soon be cluttering up the pedestrian areas (given this is a warm weather depiction)?

[Rockets]

What I find amazing is the enthusiasm from the council and their supporters to pour yet more money into that junction (how much tax-payers money has gone into it thus far and now they want to spend even more?) yet junctions that actually need attention - like the Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove nightmare - go untouched.

 

I would be interested to hear CAD's thoughts on the removal of the pedestrian refuges at the junction of East Dulwich Grove and Red Post Hill (which are wrapped into the plans that they are so keen to validate and support in Dulwich Square!).

[heartblock]

Remember when flaws were found in certain publications, from academics with ties to LCC and Sustrans that supported LTNs as a way to reduce car use and traffic - even on non-LTN roads. The flaws outlined showed that traffic had increased on high-density housing 'sacrificial' roads. And yet the statisticians, academia and clan-air activists that pointed out these flaws were accused of many 'sins'....

 

Well - here we are https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/29/sholto-david-biologist-finds-flaws-in-scientific-papers

 

Edited January 29 by heartblock

[Raeburn]

Heartblock, this article is about flaws in visual images used in research papers.

[Penguin68]

Actually I think you'll find it is about the way that visual images of data were presented and interpreted by 'researchers' using these images (drawn from other research) as part of an argument of their own. The author does not impugn malign intent on these researchers, specifically, but it is suggested that the way people choose evidence to support arguments may well be challengeable. This supports arguments which suggest that papers, even where presented in reputable and peer reviewed journals, may well be flawed as regards their use of findings to support a case. The fact that the examples chosen to illustrate the problem were drawn from use of data images in other research does not detract from the underlying thesis that research as presented can be fundamentally flawed - in a manner which a casual reader would find difficult to determine without access to the original research papers from which these images were drawn. Indeed it is probable that basing this paper on the use of third party sourced data images (where the originals exist and can be accessed) might be one of the few ways in which this can be addressed. How researchers use data they have originated and which they only have access to is far more difficult to judge, where full data results are not presented (and indeed how can one trust that these are full data results?).