LTN Discussion

[Spartacus]

Following on from what Legal mentioned about doorstep canvassing earlier in this thread.

The poor guy who came to my door today almost couldn't get away quick enough when I said that his party aren't listening and that the loval LTNs arent working

For some reason he said that he came from Islington and they installed theirs before us so it takes time to bed in .. didn't like my response in saying its had time here and not working... why compare us to another area ? Raising the question over PTAL scores made him even more ready to turn tail and run from my door.

He actually made his exit sharpish when I asked about plans for a Borough wide CPZ which he couldn't answer because he "only moved here recently..."

Let's hope councillors start listening otherwise come May there may be a few bloody noses, figuratively speaking, post the election.

[Rockets]

Do I take it the emergency vehicle access at the DV junction doesn?t start operating until all the new timing measures came in? It?s just that the gap they have created for emergency vehicle access along Calton by moving the planters is now blocked anytime someone parks a Car Club car in the allotted space.

[legalalien]

the new timings came in last Thursday I think? The signs about timing have changed. So I think the emergency access thing is now operational as well? I hate to say it but maybe another sign is needed re not parking to block the access.

[DulvilleRes]

Interesting chat on here with some suggesting road charging as a potential alternative to LTN's - drivers should be means-tested charged for driving their cars as a way of reducing traffic as an alternative to LTN's.

The issue here I think is that over half the people in the Borough don't actually own a car, so if everything 'goes back to how it was' which seems to be the endpoint of the anti-LTN lobby, that is over half the people in the Borough unable to enjoy a coffee outside the fronts of the cafes, or teach their kids to ride a bike on a quiet road. It doesn't feel very 'clean air for all' to me.

[legalalien]

I don't really understand that last comment. Lots of people enjoying coffees outside of cafes currently are car owners; I don't drive and taught my child to ride a bike on a quite road pre the changes; and plenty of people who don't own a car live on boundary roads and it doesn't feel very clean air for all. I don't think the Dulwich LTN is working primarily for the benefit of non-car owners, to put in another way (some other LTNs might be, who knows?) Am I missing something?

[Bic Basher]

People drink outside the EDT every summer despite it being on a busy roundabout, which is now even busier thanks to the LTN.

Labour Southwark, for the few, not the many.

[Rockets]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the new timings came in last Thursday I think?

> The signs about timing have changed. So I think

> the emergency access thing is now operational as

> well? I hate to say it but maybe another sign is

> needed re not parking to block the access.

They?ll have to move the car club bay as it actually breaks the plane of where the planters have been moved to. Let?s hope no emergency vehicle tries to gain access whilst the council tries to sort it out. Looks like bad planning again.

[Rockets]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't really understand that last comment. Lots

> of people enjoying coffees outside of cafes

> currently are car owners; I don't drive and taught

> my child to ride a bike on a quite road pre the

> changes; and plenty of people who don't own a car

> live on boundary roads and it doesn't feel very

> clean air for all. I don't think the Dulwich LTN

> is working primarily for the benefit of non-car

> owners, to put in another way (some other LTNs

> might be, who knows?) Am I missing something?

And the point many on the pro-LTN argument repeatedly miss is that Dulwich has the highest car ownership rates in the borough with over 60% owning a car, many owning more than one car. The council always says?but only 42% of people own a car across the borough?as some sort of justification for the measures but in their own TMS from 2018 they state that one of the reasons for high car ownership in Dulwich is because of the poor PTAl scores.

So it doesn?t take a genius to work out that many of those enjoying the cafes and teaching their kids to cycle on quiet roads in Dulwich also own cars and are probably defend their closed roads whilst happily polluting others. I bet there has been no decline in Dulwich car ownership figures since the LTNs went in.

[northernmonkey]

The car club bay should have already or is being moved. It was in the published plans.

People parking in a selfish and entitled way may be a harder nut to crack though

[Rockets]

The car club bay is still there, has not been moved and is blocking emergency vehicle access when filled with a car. A Car Club car is currently parked in it. Why? Because it is still marked as a Car Club Bay and people using Car Club are told to only return their cars to a marked Car Club bay?.which it still is?..

Looks like another council oversight??.

[northernmonkey]

Last time I went past it had been marked to be moved. I have no idea why this wouldn?t have been done before opening up the square for emergency access though.

[legalalien]

Maybe there was a car parked in it when the Conways team turned up?

[Rockets]

You may be right as the space was certainly empty for the days after the council created the emergency access route and it is only the last day or so that the car has appeared. I presume then that the council would need to contact Car Club to get them to remove it before the bay can be removed.

[legalalien]

Electioneering in full swing in the Village ward. Spotted the LD candidate out canvassing today.

Just received a Southwark Labour pamphlet. Doesn't mention their flagship policies, housing and transport, climate change or Southwark Stands Together at all. If Southwark Labour are genuinely proud of their housing / transport / green policies, why not mention them? Perhaps they are not very popular?

Also talks about giving ?17.1 million to local businesses during the pandemic - was that not central government funding? Or maybe this was some extra funding from the council. Not sure.

[Administrator]

Please stick to the LTN topic

[legalalien]

Fair enough, will do. Just thought that canvassing based on LTNs or not was sort of in topic but appreciate there?s a grey area around that.

[heartblock]

I see it's the end of half-term and I look out my window to see the 37 bus and an ambulance stuck in a long-line of stationary, idling traffic once again. Before the x5 LTNs forcing traffic to be funnelled down my high density residential school road, I never noticed the traffic being that different between term time and school holidays. Of course I will be told that I'm 'dreaming' this or it's my 'perception', even though I suggest my 35 years of living on the same road...might mean my longitudinal, observation is probably longer in years than some critics age and very valid.

Maybe I'm so old that I must be a UKIP-ing, polluting, car-loving one of 'them'. Or maybe I'm a green issue supporting, social inequality aware, longtime campaigner and expert in cardiovascular and respiratory health...I'm sure someone will helpfully tell me what I think, who I am and what I really see, very soon.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Before the x5 LTNs forcing traffic to be

> funnelled down my high density residential school

> road, I never noticed the traffic being that

> different between term time and school holidays.

> Of course I will be told that I'm 'dreaming' this

> or it's my 'perception'...

Traffic in London has always been markedly different between term time and holiday time. This article is in the context of COVID but shows radical variations in congestion across London depending on termtime or not: https://bigworldtale.com/world-news/londons-roads-are-quietest-for-five-months-during-tuesday-term-time/

In Dulwich the distinction is actually between PRIVATE school term time and holiday time: there are weeks when private schools are out and state schools are in, and in those weeks there is markedly less traffic due to fewer kids, more walking/cycling, less car commuting, less coaches. I don't have data to substantiate that, it's just my anecdotal observation.

[Nigello]

Does anyone know whether any of the schools - state or indy - have an officer or at least a staff member whose job it is to look at traffic-reduction plans, etc.? If not that, then do they do anything at all to reduce traffic.

[legalalien]

I think the schools discuss through the Safe Routes to School forum

http://dulwichsaferoutes.blogspot.com/p/safe-routes-to-school-background.html

[heartblock]

It has always been different, but shared on roads..now all the pressure is on one road..but we don't matter as we are second class boundary-roaders, so our lungs are not as important as those on side roads.

[Earl Aelfheah]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I see it's the end of half-term and I look out my

> window to see the 37 bus and an ambulance stuck in

> a long-line of stationary, idling traffic once

> again. Before the x5 LTNs forcing traffic to be

> funnelled down my high density residential school

> road, I never noticed the traffic being that

> different between term time and school holidays.

> Of course I will be told that I'm 'dreaming' this

> or it's my 'perception', even though I suggest my

> 35 years of living on the same road...might mean

> my longitudinal, observation is probably longer in

> years than some critics age and very valid.

>

> Maybe I'm so old that I must be a UKIP-ing,

> polluting, car-loving one of 'them'. Or maybe I'm

> a green issue supporting, social inequality aware,

> longtime campaigner and expert in cardiovascular

> and respiratory health...I'm sure someone will

> helpfully tell me what I think, who I am and what

> I really see, very soon.

Is the school your referring to East Dulwich Charter? Because just a regular reminder that traffic around this school has actually decreased. In fact the entrance is inside the LTN - on Melbourne Grove - a road on which you're explicitly calling for an increase in traffic.

[first mate]

What a slippery statement, R.

Are you saying the increase in traffic experienced by HB on EDG is okay or just a fiction?

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> heartblock Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I see it's the end of half-term and I look out

> my

> > window to see the 37 bus and an ambulance stuck

> in

> > a long-line of stationary, idling traffic once

> > again. Before the x5 LTNs forcing traffic to be

> > funnelled down my high density residential

> school

> > road, I never noticed the traffic being that

> > different between term time and school

> holidays.

> > Of course I will be told that I'm 'dreaming'

> this

> > or it's my 'perception', even though I suggest

> my

> > 35 years of living on the same road...might

> mean

> > my longitudinal, observation is probably longer

> in

> > years than some critics age and very valid.

> >

> > Maybe I'm so old that I must be a UKIP-ing,

> > polluting, car-loving one of 'them'. Or maybe

> I'm

> > a green issue supporting, social inequality

> aware,

> > longtime campaigner and expert in

> cardiovascular

> > and respiratory health...I'm sure someone will

> > helpfully tell me what I think, who I am and

> what

> > I really see, very soon.

>

> Is the school your referring to East Dulwich

> Charter? Because just a regular reminder that

> traffic around this school has actually decreased.

> In fact the entrance is inside the LTN - on

> Melbourne Grove - a road on which you're

> explicitly calling for an increase in traffic.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Heartblock references the school:

"Before the x5 LTNs forcing traffic to be funnelled down my high density residential school road".

I'm simply pointing out that traffic on the East Dulwich Grove side of Charter has actually dropped, and through traffic on Melbourne Grove North (where the main entrance is), has been removed.

Heartblock has explicitly called for through traffic to run past the entrance to the school.

[heartblock]

1. Traffic hasn't dropped because this point measure is new in Sept 2021, so it is impossible to prove a drop at a single point on one count.

2. There are three schools on EDG

3. Two of Charter's entrances are on EDG and the sports field is 2 metres from EDG and the main entrance will be on ED Grove at the chateau if you look at the plans, does that mean Melbourne will open and EDG become the LTN?

4. Explicit means - stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt, so nope

5. Through traffic means - traffic which continues on a road or highway rather than crossing onto a different road. all through traffic has been diverted, so the through traffic or diverted traffic is as you have willingly admitted now on EDG