Yummy Mummies

[karenin]

i take matt's point - nobody likes a whining kid, least of all on a plane or in a pub. however, i shall be taking my baby to the pub, because i like a pint, and as an almost teetotal mothership for the last 8 1/2 months, i feel it's my due. if he starts whinging, i shall probably take him home or slip a double brandy into his milk. joke.

on a related note, i have for some years now taken the piss out of the bourgeoisie mummies with three wheelers in east dulwich but am now forced to review my position; last week i was horrified to observe myself emerging from yo maman bebe (or whatever it's called) and waddle up LL. i fear it...

[DaveR]

"Great thread Matt, it's been a while. I have noticed that every time we get one of these, the same parents will rush in to attack! Blue one made a very reasonable point way back on page 1, well done you!"

I think what happens is many people observe (i) that generalising about the behaviour of mothers and their kids is no more valid than generalising about any other group (ii) that their own experiences of the behaviour of the enormous number of young kids to be found in and around ED tends to the positive rather than the negative (iii) that the use of phrases like Yummy Mummy introduces issues of class that obscure and detract from the rational argument and (iv) that if the point you want to make is that there should be sensible limits on kids and their behaviour, particularly in 'adult' spaces e.g. pubs after about 6pm, don't worry, everybody agrees.

I've never seen any post on any of the numerous threads where this has been debated ad nauseam go further than the above in their support of the 'kid lobby', if there is one.

[CamberwellOz]

I've only just started to be the one with a child in a pub in the last year. I already had thought that the 'no smoking' policy would change the culture of pub life. I agree that sometimes it can be annoying to have a screaming child/small toddler running round whilst you are trying to have a quiet drink in the pub. (I was once a singleton too.... muttering 'will someone shut that child up' under my breath) But I'm from Oz and kids running around the pub was normal when I was growing up. They usually had an outdoors bit with some kids play equipment, we always sat at the table to eat our food and usually we were quite well behaved. (Still when I was 18,19,20 they annoyed me) I think my acceptance came with my age and the great ability to block out certain noises. I don't know of the pub you are talking about but I found the best way to deal with small children annoying my evening when I was younger was to move to a different part of the pub. I think you'll find that people taking their kids out is increasing all over the country - not just the East Dulwich breeding experiment - (or I seem to see a lot more families out) now that you can't smoke inside. I'm not saying I'd take my 10 month old to the pub to watch a rugby match but I don't think it is all that bad to take her out to dinner once in a while.

[????]

The "white working class" and "yummy mummys" ...the only minorities that are attackable on the EDF...oh and gamblers>:D

[Loz]

You forgot 'Foxtons employees'.

[Asset]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>the original use of YM

given its connotations of 'look how

wonderful/beautiful/successful/enviable I am as a

> mother whilst my City dwelling husband supports my

> lifestyle'

I manage to look all of the above (sometimes) whilst supporting myself with a student loan thanks very much. Which just goes to show you can't judge by appearances.

[CamberwellOz]

Matt - did you have a bet with your mates that you could get the most posts in a day?

[HonaloochieB]

Would not some sort of Calpol cocktail help?

[SeanMacGabhann]

  Quote

shouldn't rise to the bait but...

white working class are not a minority. Nor are they attacked on here. Nor would it be tolerated. If you mean threads which refer to chavs - that's different. White working class does not equal chav. Not that I'm supporting chav-baiting anyway...

"yummy mummies" - attackable? not if this thread is anything to go by. Besides I though matt was giving out about children in pubs not YMs

Now gamblers on the other hand....!

[alib]

So do any yummy mummies/dishy daddies want to arrange to go to the pub and get on people's nerves? This thread is making me thirsty...

[HonaloochieB]

alib Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So do any yummy mummies/dishy daddies want to

> arrange to go to the pub and get on people's

> nerves? This thread is making me thirsty...

Let us ugly bastards with adult offspring know the venue and date, I'll be staying away in a drove.

[snorky]

fetid fathers welcome ?

[Brendan]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Honestly, I was purely quoting Educating Rita

> (mental note: never again).

>

> However, thank you for the excellent aide-memoire,

> now I shall be able to remember which is which!

Sorry Moos I didn?t realise at first but when I was on the train this evening something in my mind put 2 and 2 together and I though, oh yeah the film Educating Rita and then I remembered the scene where she describes assonance as getting the rhyme wrong and I got what you were on about. Only about 2 hours too late. :-S

[BARA]

I support the idea that having kids should not ruin your social life i.e.pub and restaurant. When our 3 girls were young, we made sure we took them out to a restaurant whenever we could afford it. This was to ensure that they knew how to behave in public, how to read a menu and order their food and to observe other diners. My eldest now regularly takes her 4 and 9 year old to restaurants/pubs - she makes sure they have colouring books, reading matter and a small toy - all pulled out when they get fidgety and likely to annoy other punters. This generally gets them through a 2 course meal before they start getting annoying - and then it's back home.

[CamberwellOz]

Don't worry - in a few years us 'breeders' will have teenagers. Then how much are they going to annoy you.

[Spangles30]

"I suppose that the difference is that most gay men don't scream the place down while you're trying to have a quiet drink. Unless "Wow" by Kylie comes on."

LOL James!!!

[Spangles30]

Incidentally, if parents felt less paranoid about taking youngsters out to social places e.g. pubs etc (for fear of incurring the wrath of those who find children 'annoying'), we might find that children would learn to be better behaved in general. As I have already said, I find the majority of young children in the area really well behaved and nice. Why shouldn't they be out and about with their parents (as long as it's not during a power pram sess!)

(Only stated that for you Moos! :)

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

  Quote

fetid fathers welcome?

Only if your kids are naughty.

[first mate]

Can anyone explain why pubs in the evening are a good place to take toddlers? What do they get out of it, especially on lovely sunny evenings? Wouldn't they be better off in the garden or in the park or playing at home?

[Moos]

:) at Spangles30's last.

I feel there's a point to make about balancing teaching your kids that it's normal to be out in public with others, and that they should behave themselves accordingly, and taking them home when they overstep the line - and that the balance is hard to find when you are sensitive to the hyper-criticality of others around you - but I lack the energy to express it fully.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

  Quote

Can anyone explain why pubs in the evening are a good place to take toddlers? What do they get out of it, especially on lovely sunny evenings? Wouldn't they be better off in the garden or in the park or playing at home?

My kids quite like going to the pub, I think it may be something to do with coke and crisps. However (with the exception of the Herne) they tend to get restless after about 45 mins and that is when I will take them home. I think most parents act this way as well which is why we get irked when it is suggested that we are all irresponsible lushes whose kids terrorise the pub-goers of East Dulwich. There is also an obvious market for families before 7pm or pubs would not operate such child-friendly policies. The bottom line is that without the "family-buck" a lot of establishments would struggle to survive and then there wouldn't be anywhere for the childless elite to have a quiet drink in after 7:30pm.

[Sandperson]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Can anyone explain why pubs in the evening are a

> good place to take toddlers? What do they get out

> of it, especially on lovely sunny evenings?

> Wouldn't they be better off in the garden or in

> the park or playing at home?

Maybe it's more about what the parents get out of it? Like being able to feel human, see friends etc. I am a new father and walked out of the pub the other evening (The Clockhouse around 6pm) when my daughter started to grizzle, I felt guilty about ruining someone else's night and my wife and I left our drinks unfinished. I don't regularly take her (the baby) to the pub and don't get to go much myself anymore but I wouldn't mind not feeling like a leper on the odd occasion I do. I remember growing up (my parents were not big drinkers or pub goers) being taken to the pub and left outside with a lemonade and a packet of crisps. Is that any better?

[lozzyloz]

  Quote

but I lack the energy to express it fully

It's like pushing a pea with your nose up Everest. Unless you've been a parent or cared for toddlers/siblings it's difficult to fully appreciate.

To answer 'first mate's' question I would say that if the toddler is in any location (doesn't need to be a pub) that is threatening to them and at a time when they need sleep/feeding or both then they're not going to get much positive out of it. There are a small minority of parents, from all sections of society that don't always exercise good judgement. It's a shame that that small minority can often spoil things for many others. Often though it's simply not the fault of the parents. On a nice warm summer evening, in a beer garden/restaurant/cafe/whatever, with friends/family at a reasonable hour (not later than 8pm IMO) then I think it's a positive environment for toddlers to socialise and be introduced to different environments and people. Kids are kids so their behaviour is never going to be exemplary (same as us adults). During their development, they'll either be frustrated at a lack of ability to be able to express themselves articulately, hence the screaming, a need for attention (aka all youngsters in the animal kingdom) or full of curiosity to push beyond the boundaries set by their parents. All qualities that endear us at all ages.

If we were a more kid/family friendly society I wonder what the statistics for teenage knife murders would be?

[BlueOne]

I reckon these latter posts are brilliant and make a lot of sense - and lozzyloz males a great point about the inability of all kids to be perfectly behaved at all times. I am in no way without sympathy for the rights of parents to have some freedom and fun! But please don't get upset if there are tipsy people or loudly guffawing people or swearing people or even smokers in the beer garden while your kids are around. It is a pub after all. (And for the record I am none of these - except maybe the slightly tipsy one sometimes!)

[alib]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Can anyone explain why pubs in the evening are a

> good place to take toddlers? What do they get out

> of it, especially on lovely sunny evenings?

> Wouldn't they be better off in the garden or in

> the park or playing at home?

Chances are a lovely sunny evening has been preceded by a lovely sunny day in which case the garden and the park options were exhausted by lunch, and "playing at home" is what you've mostly been doing every long long day since you were born. It's a change of scene, a bit of atmosphere, a chance to connect with the outside world and see more than the same old face. You understand I'm not talking about the benefit to the parent here but the child. Why? What do you get out of it? What makes your needs more valid please?