Electric bikes being ridden on pavements

[Moovart]

22 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

 

If you look at this forum, one might be forgiven for thinking that bikes are causing significant harm to others, out of all proportion to say, private motor vehicles. If you believe that, then yes, there are some clear cognitive biases at play imo; because there is plenty of objective evidence that it is not the case. 

Difference is motor vehicles are insured and aren't on the pavement. If you are injured by a bike whether legally on the road or illegally on the pavement there is no come back.  If you cannot work for a prolonged period due to an injury caused by a bike hitting you on a pavement you cannot identify the person responsible if they cycle off and you cannot claim against insurance. You potentially lose your livelihood because of an individual's thoughtless and illegal behaviour.  And yes that is talking from personal knowledge. 

Electric bikes on pavements are fast, heavy and can inflict significant damage if they knock you over.  The least we can do is expect them not to be moving on the pavement. Same for pedal bikes. 

[exdulwicher]

2 hours ago, Moovart said:

Difference is motor vehicles are insured and aren't on the pavement. If you are injured by a bike whether legally on the road or illegally on the pavement there is no come back.  

Excellent, we've almost got a full house of anti-cyclist bingo! Rather predictably, that's exactly where this thread has ended up...

Do we move onto tH3y DoNt PaY R0ad TaX!!! next?

https://twitter.com/AdamBronkhorst/status/1585987868593307648?t=BzXBgLeIaG0dH8xBGbjUMA&s=19

There's about a million uninsured vehicles on the road and a quick look round the area will show you plenty of parked vehicles on pavements which means they had to be driven on pavements to get there...

It's not a "cyclist only" issue by any means - we could add the vast amounts of general pavement clutter like bins, signage, poor paving surfaces etc into the mix as well. Although on the plus side at least they're not moving!

[Rockets]

Ex - to be fair we have the absolute full-house because the pro-cycle folks on here are playing the "bikes don't kill or injure as many people as cars do" which is a, factually correct, but ultimately ludicrous narrative to start peddling because unless bikes are not killing or injuring anyone then people in glasshouses should not be throwing stones.

 

I don't want to be hit by a car but I also don't want to be hit by a bike and whilst I walk around Dulwich more often than not I feel more at risk from cyclists than I do cars. Why is that - because cars have a well established and bedded-in code of conduct (you stop at red lights, respect pedestrian crossings etc) - of course some drivers do break them (and the results can be catastrophic) but, in the main, the rules of the road are respected?

 

Many cyclists adhere to the rules of the road but there is are a lot that do not - now, maybe it is because they don't understand it but you cannot not fail to see cyclists jumping the lights or using the pedestrian green light as their cue to dart across the road, up onto the pavement and back onto the road (just spend 10 minutes at the Plough junction if you want to see what I mean).

 

Take Rule 74 of the Highway Code - very few cyclists adhere to that (although I was in my car turning left and one actually did which amazed me). Now maybe it is because they don't know the rule but sometimes when turning left (and being mindful of cyclists) the cyclists expect you to wait for them no matter how far behind you they are.

 

I think the road tax argument is pointless but with Italy's strange new government threatening to head that way with registrations and insurance required for cyclists the big issue for cyclists (myself included) is that if that does go ahead councils and authorities will sit up and take note, not because they believe in it ideologically, but because of the potential for revenue generation - something car drivers have had to get used to for years!

 

 

 

[Chick]

I stepped out of a shop door and was narrowly missed a cyclist on the pavement looking at his phone and riding fast.  A frail old lady came out and had he hit her she would have been in hospital. The charming young man looked back at me and shouted "f*ck you"

Edited June 15, 2023 by Chick

[malumbu]

ROSPA published a review of electric bikes you may wish to read: www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/cyclists/e-bikes-factsheet.pdf

I often go to this organisation as an authoritative source of information and they do an excellent job of lobbying government.

I've cut a relevant paragraph from this document:

"Cyclists must also follow all normal road rules and laws- these laws apply no matter what kind of bicycle they
are riding. RoSPA recommend that all road users regularly read the Highway Code to refresh their knowledge
of the rules of the road. All cyclists should also be looking out for other road users such as pedestrians and
giving them time and room. As riders are able to accelerate quicker when riding an electric bike, pedestrians
may miscalculate their speed.

RoSPA recommend that any cyclist who is returning to riding after a long people of not riding or cyclists
switching from a conventional bike to an electric bike should consider taking a cycle training course. For more
information about cycle training, visit the Bikeability website"

Recommending refresher and advanced training for all road users is a good thing.  The current government is committed to providing free cycling lessons to everyone, which is a great thing.  I'm sure that future governments will extend this to drivers, and delivery cyclists.

To enter into the fun pub talk about who's had the best experience with another road user, I've had two fun ones in quick succession.  I politely asked a motorist to slow down, as he was driving well over the speed limit close to a school with kids on their bikes.  Similarly with a driver, who clearly had forgotten the highway code and didn't remember not to cut the corner of a junction, I politely reminded him about the rule in the UK of riding/cycling on the left.  They both gave me a cheery fack off.  I was so chilled that I brushed this off, but thought it would make an amusing anacdote to share with my on line friends.

I've got lots of fun stories about people being a bit naughty on motorbikes, I have a license too, but that will be for another thread.

[malumbu]

Licensing of bikes comes up from time to time usually when the current government want to send red meat to their more hard line supporters or distract from small nuisances like fibbing ex Prime Ministers.  Government officials remind the Transport Secretary that is has been looked at time and time again, is daft and undeliverable.  We've chatted many times about this on the Forum, so to save time I've attached the previous thread www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/313035-cyclists-could-be-made-to-have-registration-plates-and-insurance-–-report/#comment-1590414

There are numerous articles on why it is daft, many in cycling journals, but also from serious journalists like Peter Walker, who lives locally.  Rather than go to recent articles this one from 2010 shows it was daft 13 years ago  https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2010/dec/13/regulating-cyclists

I did find a spoof article in Viz or Private Eye that you will enjoy.  Just don't take it seriously folks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11117805/Shake-road-laws-bike-riders-forced-registration-numbers-insurance.html

 

 

[ed_pete]

Southwark's Council Leader has written to Lime threatening to remove and charge for badly parked bikes.

[malumbu]

Good on Southwark, hope others will agree, do put on the Lime Bikes thread

[first mate]

12 hours ago, ed_pete said:

Southwark's Council Leader has written to Lime threatening to remove and charge for badly parked bikes.

Thanks Ed pete, it'll be interesting to see what impact this has.

[Rockets]

To think of all the money that has been poured into creating new cycle infrastructure and the disruption that has caused to other modes of transport, especially buses, that daily cycle journey growth was a paltry 13% in London between 2020-2022 and that’s including a healthy dose of lockdown cycling and booming delivery businesses that are bike based and were born from the pandemic. And that growth has come from a base (in 2019) where cycling accounted for just 2% of all London daily journeys.

 

https://twitter.com/VincentStops/status/1669590330990112768?s=20

 

When is TFL going to realise that its approach to modern transportation in this city has to be built around something other than the whims of white, middle class, middle aged male cyclists? How are people like Will Norman still in a job? He promised a cycle revolution, his grandiose claims of huge leaps in the numbers of people cycling was just hot air and blusto. It just isn’t happening in the numbers required to justify the disruption to other transport methods - London is ceasing to function as TFL, the Mayor’s office and councils try to force square pegs into round holes.

 

And like the Lime bike problem it’s being caused by a lack of proper planning and rapid deployment of measures that are just not fit for purpose - clueless leadership who are basing strategic policies on hunches, warped data from cycle lobbyists and research groups that promise a fundamental shift that is just not happening.

[Bic Basher]

If the TfL cycling scheme had been introduced across the whole of Greater London complete with plenty of docking stations rather than having them in the north of the borough, we may have had the private sector come in leaving the bikes on pavements in the first place.

Yet Lime especially has tapped into a market where local residents have used them for trips locally or into central London where public transport has either been too infrequent due to Covid cuts in rail services or is too slow because of 20MPH speed limits and LTNs clogging up main roads.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

4 hours ago, Bic Basher said:

public transport has either been too infrequent due to Covid cuts in rail services or is too slow because of 20MPH speed limits

The average traffic speed in Inner London is 12mph. The idea that the number 12 bus isn't significantly faster because it's not getting up to 50mph on Barry Rd is just silly. The main thing slowing buses down is...automobile traffic in the way. Trains, trams, riverboats and cable cars (!) are of course unaffected by speed limits on roads.

https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/average-traffic-speeds-1

Edited June 21, 2023 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[Rockets]

The main problem for buses is that now a lot of the infrastructure for bus lanes (especially in central London and across choke points like bridges) has been repurposed/resized for cycle lanes and buses have been forced to share the road with other traffic as particular points. And in areas like around here bus times have been impacted by the additional congestion caused by LTNs and the push of traffic onto boundary roads - which. more often than not, are the bus routes.

[jazzer]

Been into town today, too many pinch points, too many traffic lights set to allow two buses through before changing back to red.  Going from the Elephant up to Farringdon Road, an absolute mare of a journey, but this is what Khan has done with the imposition of cycle lanes. 

I can understand why people prefer to WFH. 

Forty plus years ago, used to do Forest Hill Road to Kings Cross, oh those were the days when traffic actually flowed.  

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by jazzer

[Rockets]

London is rapidly ceasing to function from a road transport perspective - it's getting ludicrous. And so much focus has been, wrongly, placed on the private car and little thought given to the impact on support for services that support the daily function of our city. For all the blusto about the supposed benefits of a lot of these measures Khan and councils' obsession with trying to make the bike the de facto standard for all city travel has backfired massively. Even the bike rental schemes are proving to be an absolute disaster.

[malumbu]

It's great that you are also passionate about the issue of congestion in London.  May I suggest you start yet another thread on the matter

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

5 hours ago, jazzer said:

Forty plus years ago, used to do Forest Hill Road to Kings Cross, oh those were the days when traffic actually flowed.  

 

It's just not true, though.

Average speed in Inner London in 1980 was...11.9mph. It's got fractionally faster in 40 years, despite the population growing by 50%.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1993-02-03/debates/bcc1e076-2ad2-4c29-971b-d1749d605227/TrafficSpeedInLondon

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London

 

On 15/06/2023 at 09:11, Moovart said:

 you cannot identify the person responsible if they cycle off and you cannot claim against insurance.

The Lime etc bikes all have identification numbers and are all insured.

Does that improve things for you? Suspect not - maybe registration and insurance aren't the panacea after all.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[Rockets]

DKHB……what on earth are you talking about…..it hasn’t got any faster in 40 years, not sure where you’re getting your info from because the Hansard link you sent clearly shows it was getting worse comparing 1971 (12.7mph) 1980 (11.9 mph) and 1990 (10.4 mps). Since 1990 it has got even slower to the point where…..it is now officially the slowest city in the world with speeds around 9mph…but you know don‘t let the truth get in the way of a good story and all that….

 

https://www.tomtom.com/newsroom/explainers-and-insights/london-is-the-worlds-slowest-city/

[Bic Basher]

Up until the late 80s, there were bus routes that used to be able to travel from one end of London to another.   We used to have the 12 going to Park Royal and the 176 to Willesden Garage when the journey times were acceptable enough to get on a bus from this end of London.
 

Now a 176 in peak time can take well over an hour and a half to get from Penge to Tottenham Court Road, which leaves those without cars the option of rail or bike.

Converting what were bus lanes into full cycle lanes or pavement extensions in Waterloo isn't exactly helping the bus be the viable form of transport it should be for longer journeys.   Unless you have plenty of time on your hands, it's simply not a viable option during daytime weekdays to travel into Zone 1.    I use the Overground and Elizabeth line into the West End which is a much faster option.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Bic Basher

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, Bic Basher said:

 We used to have the 12 going to Park Royal and the 176 to Willesden Garage...I use the Overground and Elizabeth line into the West End which is a much faster option.

The number of people that want to travel from East Dulwich to the arse end of NW London by bus every day must be statistically insignificant. (No doubt Willesden residents feel the same about us). So what?

The Overground has been completely rebuilt since 1980. Crossrail didn't exist. It's complete cobblers to say that going into zone 1 during weekday daytime isn't viable - as any of us that actually have jobs in Z1 can attest.

Nostalgia for the public transport of 40+ years ago is just that - nostalgia. Objectively, it was fractionally slower, less accessible, less predictable, and more likely to give you lung cancer.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[heartblock]

It is possible to have clean, quick, accessible and cheap public transport that people choose to use rather than drive. There just isn’t the political will, with the exception of the Green Party. The Labour Party just seems to chop and change depending on whatever a focus group decides. 

Electric bikes are brilliant we looked at the VanMoof - loved them but so pricey. But they are not for pavement riding, neither are push bikes. My eyesight isn’t great in half-light and my partners balance isn’t great after several seizures and it’s like an obstacle course some mornings.

 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Second paragraph - completely agree.

First paragraph - nice idea that a shift could be induced through consumer choice alone, but it can't happen. There is no way to really speed up bus routes without reducing the volume of other traffic in the way of buses first. TINA.

[heartblock]

PT includes trains, tram, tube, bus and public bikes. Just putting air-con on buses makes a huge difference. Make it cheap, clean and cool in the Summer and I imagine a shift. The ‘is no way’ is a bit defeatist? 

[Nigello]

I agree with the need to luxe-up buses and trains just a little - air con is a must. Some buses feel ok - the 63 has cool air that blows down on you if you sit on the lower deck - but lots of others are barbarically hot. 

[Bic Basher]

I'm not too bothered about air con, free WiFi or USB sockets on a bus.  What they need to be is prioritised instead of being pushed onto the main traffic lane.

There is another issue with bus lanes in that taxis are allowed to use them as well.   On a normal day on The Strand westbound between Aldwych and Charing Cross station, the 176 crawls along the bus lane alongside black cabs which makes the whole bus lane redundant if they're also stuck in traffic with cars/vans alongside.

Now dogkennelhillbilly may be right about the 185 which skims just inside Zone 1 along Vauxhall Bridge Road to Victoria, but the 176 is a mess and has been for years, not helped by Waterloo Bridge losing the bus lane northbound for a cycle lane as well as The Strand.   

Also remember I'm at the Forest Hill end of Lordship Lane, so don't have the benefit of being closer to the Zone 1 boundary at Vauxhall/Elephant close by using a bus.