CCTV Contravention Warning Notice

[Froglander]

Does anyone know if this is operating during school holidays?   

[bcam]

On 22/05/2023 at 09:18, Alan Medic said:

We got a 'warning' for an alleged contravention in Adys Road junction East Dulwich Road. Our vehicle has just left the area where the attached picture was taken. Anyone know what the contravention might have been? The video link we were sent shows our car and may others passing here.

 

I just got exactly the same ticket. Didn't see the sign, no advanced warnign and a stupidly short closure time.

Has anyone been successful in an appeal?

[floradora]

Recently received a penalty fine for driving down Amott Road and turning right into Adys road. I am a very vigilant driver but had not noticed the sign on the left saying it was a pedestrian and cycle zone between 3pm- 3.45pm. (My ticket was issued at 3.04 not that that's particularly relevant). Like other people on this thread have said, the signs need to be much bigger, markings on the road,  flashing lights- whatever to draw attention to them - and most importantly signs on both sides of the road not just the left which is the passenger side and where a driver is less likely to focus especially when there are high vehicles such as vans parked. I would never have driven down this street willingly trying to break the rules , I simply did not notice the sign because as others have said, when you are driving down a narrow London street  that you are unfamiliar with - parked cars on either side, cyclists to navigate, delivery vans unloading etc  your attention is on the road and not on a relatively small sign on the left. I walked back down that road yesterday to actually see where the sign was  as I was shocked I had missed it and angry about the fine. I am 100 per cent for keeping roads traffic free outside schools at drop off and pick up but the signage needs to be much better.  Right now I imagine the penalty fines are pouring in which is probably just how Southwark Council likes it. Get better signage. How many people have been innocently caught out at this particular junction? Has anyone successfully disputed their penalty here because of poor signage? 

[malumbu]

There are national standards for road signage, I'd expect you'd need to raise with your MP or Transport Secretary.  Have a look through the attached https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, floradora said:

Like other people on this thread have said, the signs need to be much bigger, markings on the road,  flashing lights- whatever to draw attention to them - and most importantly signs on both sides of the road not just the left which is the passenger side and where a driver is less likely to focus especially when there are high vehicles such as vans parked.

If the signs are bigger the traps set by the council don't generate enough revenue!

The positioning of the LTN sign at the entrance of Burbage was impossible to see to anyone approaching from Gallery Road - the council was alerted to this fact but, for a very long time, did nothing about it.

 

 

[malumbu]

You have posted this view on so many threads.  Perhaps they should be amalgamated under the title Southwark money grabbing local authority, and at times TfL.  That would cover bus lanes, CPZs, LTNs and the ULEZ in one.

😉 

(not my view I had ten to add, as the discussion includes Lambeth at times maybe change the title to Labour boroughs)

[ianr]

3 hours ago, malumbu said:

There are national standards for road signage, I'd expect you'd need to raise with your MP or Transport Secretary.  Have a look through the attached https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made

There is also the compendious Traffic Signs Manual which you might find useful: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs-manual.

"The Traffic Signs Manual offers advice to traffic authorities and their contractors, designers and managing agents in the United Kingdom, on the use of traffic signs and road markings on the highway network. Chapter 1 provides a general introduction and the legislative background."

[Earl Aelfheah]

59 minutes ago, Rockets said:

The positioning of the LTN sign at the entrance of Burbage was impossible to see to anyone approaching from Gallery Road - the council was alerted to this fact but, for a very long time, did nothing about it.

This thread isn't about the LTN (not everything is about a change to road layout made almost 5 years ago now - might be time to move on?)... And another way to think of this is that concerns were raised and addressed (albeit not as quickly as you might like).

Clear signage is obviously important. Where you feel it's not clear, it's definitely worth raising through your councillor.

59 minutes ago, Rockets said:

If the signs are bigger the traps set by the council don't generate enough revenue!

*yawn*

Edited January 9 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

Cheers Ian, I was looking for these.  Fascinating subject!  

Sorry forgot to add school streets to your compendium of Labour rip offs.

[CPR Dave]

They are money grubbing though. 

If they actually wanted to stop the mischief (polluting cars killing children at school pick up) they would make the signs so big and obvious no one could miss them. The warnings would be as obtrusive and obvious as those appalling pictures they print on cigarette packets these days.

If they just wanted to catch people out to grub money they would make the signs as small and discrete as they could legally get away with to catch out as many people as possible. 

 

Which option do you think they went with?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Why don’t you raise it with your councillor and see what they say? I agree that from the picture it doesn’t look like it’s obvious (and it should be), but honestly I’m not familiar with that bit of road.

Sounds like when similar concerns have been raised in the past the council have taken action to make things clearer 

Edited January 9 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

Send a FOI request into Southwark to get their stats on such offences, I expect that they are relatively small.

In fact a journo has and Southwark was one from the bottom of the list of London Boroughs being dwarfed by even some Tory boroughs

I think that this shows it is best to do your research rather than the knee jerk they are all out to get me.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-11709425/London-motorists-stung-400-000-fines-driving-near-schools.html

2021 I(when I assume many were only recently introduced 622

A year later - word had got round 275

[Rockets]

Malumbu, it would appear that any type of PCN offence is a good, and rapidly growing, revenue-stream for the council right now and I suspect that School Street fines will be growing at a similar rate - I presume this would be grouped under Moving Traffic PCNs?

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

2019/20 and 2020/21 included lockdowns. 

BTW, you can get a full breakdown of all council spending here: Council spending | Southwark Council

[march46]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Malumbu, it would appear that any type of PCN offence is a good, and rapidly growing, revenue-stream for the council right now and I suspect that School Street fines will be growing at a similar rate - I presume this would be grouped under Moving Traffic PCNs?

 

If only there was some way for drivers to avoid being fined…

[Rockets]

25 minutes ago, march46 said:

If only there was some way for drivers to avoid being fined…

Becoming increasingly difficult given the revenue-generating traps the council are laying don't you think....;-) Does anyone actually think driving standards are getting worse or just the council is monetising drivers? The powers given to local authorities to police "road safety" seems to be being abused by those who see it as a revenue opportunity; those increases in revenue speak for themselves.

Edited January 10 by Rockets

[snowy]

Timely that the RAC published research that 81% of drivers say they see people 'excessively speeding' on all types of roads: 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/excessive-speeding-now-commonplace-on-uk-roads/

[Rockets]

Why? Unless you're suggesting that the people on this thread were speeding down a school street?

[malumbu]

7 hours ago, Rockets said:

Malumbu, it would appear that any type of PCN offence is a good, and rapidly growing, revenue-stream for the council right now and I suspect that School Street fines will be growing at a similar rate - I presume this would be grouped under Moving Traffic PCNs?

 

Dunno ask Southwark.  It is easy to do a FOI request.  I don't understand why you keep posting here rather than go through official channels.  Tedious.

[Rockets]

20 minutes ago, malumbu said:

I don't understand why you keep posting here rather than go through official channels. 

Because this is a public forum and people often know the answer to questions that are posed. Clearly others, ahem, don't like it when certain questions get asked that don't suit their agenda and then are now referring us to our local councillors who are, very often, non-responsive.

You know, getting us to throw the question to councillors doesn't make it go away and, anyhow, we like to tap in to the in-depth knowledge a lot of people claim to have on all things council and transport! 😉

[malumbu]

You can submit a Freedom of Information request,  It is quite easy.  You insist on posting on your interpretation rather than seek information, or rely on selective publications that support your views.

[Rockets]

Ha ha, an FOI...that seems a lot of effort to get an answer to a simple question or are you suggesting that's the only way to get info from Southwark....?

Those PCN numbers come from the council themselves...none of that needs interpretation....it speaks volumes.

[malumbu]

You've said that Southwark is setting traps to catch drivers on school streets.  I've presented data that shows that in recent years relatively few penalty notices are issued in Southwark in school streets.  Am I right or wrong?  Perhaps others can decide.

[Rockets]

Malumbu, what point are you trying to make exactly? I have said the council is setting traps to generate revenue from PCNs - which the data clearly supports.

Look at the council's data - what's the direction of travel? Are the total numbers of PCNs being issued going up or down...and how do the numbers of PCNs issued now compare to back in 2020....? 

I am still perplexed as to why you are such a Southwark council apologist and fan boi...they're not even your council. ;-)

 

[Sue]

10 hours ago, Rockets said:

Malumbu, what point are you trying to make exactly? I have said the council is setting traps to generate revenue from PCNs - which the data clearly supports.

Look at the council's data - what's the direction of travel? Are the total numbers of PCNs being issued going up or down...and how do the numbers of PCNs issued now compare to back in 2020....? 

I am still perplexed as to why you are such a Southwark council apologist and fan boi...they're not even your council. 😉

 

I really don't want to get involved in this tedious discussion, but I do feel obliged to point out that the data you have given in no way supports your statement that  the council is "setting traps to generate revenue from PCNs"!

All it shows is an increase in the number of PCNs issued year on year 

It doesn't even give an indication of whether these are related to an increase in traffic volume, though even if they weren't your statement would still not follow from the data.

Maybe you should do a course in logic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

Edited January 11 by Sue