Ivy House share issue:

[Sue]

Why are the two pessimistic posters above so keen to give us their opinions over and over again on this thread when they have nothing positive to contribute, and nothing new to say?

It must be so depressing to have such a level of gloom and negativity all the time.

Why not engage with this community initiative in a positive manner and suggest new ways to help make The Ivy House a success?

All you have done so far is to tell everybody why you think it won't be. And so far as I know, neither of you were even at the meeting there earlier this year, which was so full that some people couldn't even get into the pub to hear what was being said.

I think that you have both very badly underestimated the massive level of community support for this ground-breaking venture.

[Huggers]

The Ivy HOuse was a popular pub. It wasnt lack of business that undermined it but the demands of Enterprise Inns who seek to bankrupt their own leaseholders.

I for one am delighted in the idea of the Ivy House springing back to life.

Enterprise Inns were not on the same side as the pub they owned.

Now the Ivy House is free of them it's a whole different story.

[DJKillaQueen]

Well Sue, you are one of those that posted, when closure of the Ivy house was announced that the business was turning around. Unfortunately the books at the time tell a different story with a brief max takings of 6k per week, well short of the new expected takings from the business plan. And an average takings of 4k (and we are talking bar takings here, not profit) even with all the music and comedy nights that were going on.

Also raising money for the purchase of a hard asset (of value) is very different to raising investment for business start up costs. The hard asset is collatoral against any loans used to pay for it. Start up costs have no guarantor. People in the trade have steered clear for a reason.

The figures would require 280 (approx no of shareholders) people spending ?45 in there EVERY week for it to make it's ?12,500 expected takings on food and drink. I've lived round the corner from that pub for 23 years. I think I know the area and the people in it well. It's going to be a struggle imo to achieve that EVERY week. Its best shot is an events pub. There is no sizeable trade outside of that. I will give my support by going there for a drink as often as I can.

[DJKillaQueen]

But Huggers, whilst Enterprise were a determining factor on profitability, they had nothing to do with the number of people through the door and how much they spent. Where I would agree there is an advantage in being independent is the freedom to choose suppliers and to set pricing. Pricing could be the one thing that does give it an edge over other pubs locally, but then you have to sell more beer to make the same targets. It's a difficult thing to get right unfortunately.

[Sue]

As honeybee 79 says, let's wait and see shall we.

Entering into "discussion" with some posters on here makes me lose the will to live :))

Strange how some people think they have so much more expertise than the funding bodies who - having gone over the business plan with a fine tooth comb - have loaned a million pounds to the venture, but plus ca change.

ETA: And why keep on and on about the same points, which honeybee 79 has already fully answered on this thread?

[stingray]

I think that the Ivy House as a project is an extremely interesting one. It is unknown territory, and I for one would love to see it work well to create a thriving local pub.

Sorry for being someone else throwing their 2 penneth in, but will probably need to get used to it with the venture set up the way it is!

What I would say from briefly looking at the budget, is that what is lacking at this stage is any indepth knowledge of the operating of a pub business.

I would strongly suggest that you seek the advice of an unbiased professional on this for some home truths, as it is arguably the most important part of ensuring it is a success.

Some of the startup costs are way off, and parts missing from these and operating costs are scary.

Budgeted gross profit margin is low (of course would like to keep costs down for customers in a community venture, and being able able to buy free of tie being taken into account).

Wage %'age is v. high, and again while wanting to pay london living wage is admirable, if the pub doesn't work nobody will have a job.

Adding in missing costs based on other parts of this budget will leave the place closer to break even, and a drop below these forecast takings will put it in the red very quickly. (I also think these are optimistic).

Hiring the right manager will be able to help with some of these things, but bear in mind these managers will all have had people who made the plans for them to work to. Anyone manager who could do all this work for you - you wouldn't be able to afford, or they will already be doing their own thing.

Just to re-iterate, I think the pub and the venture is great, and would love for it to be a role model for other similar ventures, but would hate to see the place getting into a pickle from getting off on the wrong foot.

[Peckhamrye]

The Ivy house would never have secured the finance to purchase the building if they couldn't have presented a viable business plan. So let's just wait and see - all good luck to them , I don't care if I never get a dividend, all I want is to see a community pub staying in the community - with good beer!!!! The Old Nunshead are completely independent and are making a great go of it, no reason why Ivy House shouldn't.

[honeybee79]

*Singray* - PM me. We have a revised cash flow that reflects recent expenditure and the current outlook that I would be happy to send you. We now have a much clearer picture of the start up costs. You're also correct about the forecast figure for wages and we know we need to address that. We're in the process of recruiting an experienced manager for the the venue, but like you say we will also require someone with extensive operating experience.

We're fully aware of the fact that none of us our industry professionals and so we need the input of people who are!

[malumbu]

As a share owner I hope we follow the lead of the communty run pub in Cowden Pound in Kent. One ale. Nothing else on draft. www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSEYubs-_9M

Clearly I don't expect it to be so limited but hope you can check out the link particularly the proud sign that they only sell proper English beer. Mr Farage would be proud (not that I want to be assoicated with him).

[Jeremy]

Good luck with that one.

[Andybol]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Damn, only just seen this, and don't have ?200

> available at the mo, otherwise I'd be in like a

> shot.

>

> Best of luck with it. Please have lots of live

> music!!! (and give me a few gigs).

Hehe and me !

[Sue]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As a share owner I hope we follow the lead of the

> communty run pub in Cowden Pound in Kent. One

> ale. Nothing else on draft.

xxxxxxxxx

As another share holder I sincerely hope we don't!

I'm looking forward to a selection of excellent ales! Can't wait!!

[DulwichFox]

Nice to have a good selection of Ales.. but unless there is high turn over

there will be a lot of waste as certain Ales become more popular and others left to go off.

Need to test the water so to speak and start with perhaps 3 Ales at any one time.

Then introduce guest Ales to see how they impact on other sales.

Filling the Cellar with half a dozen Ales to start with, could prove to be an expensive mistake.

Foxy

[Sue]

Oh for God's sake Fox, just for once can't you give your negativity a rest and accept that the Ivy House team knows what it is doing???!!! :))

Quite apart from having a considerable amount of intelligence and common sense between them, they are in the process of recruiting an experienced pub manager.

Do you really think they are going to start off this venture by wasting a load of ale?

[ianr]

> As a share owner I hope we follow the lead of the communty run pub in Cowden Pound in Kent. One ale. Nothing else on draft.

There is presumably scope for getting advice and information from other community pubs, such as those here: http://www.plunkett.co.uk/whatwedo/currentcooperativepubs.cfm. It looks as if the Ivy may be the first co-operative city pub; if so, perhaps a really ground-breaking experiment. I see there's a forum on the sub-site too. I'm not sure to what extent registration there is intended for Plunkett member managers or shareholders, any co-op managers/shareholders, or anyone interested.

Having looked at the Ivy share prospectus, I don't know what Plunkett Foundation Rules are and haven't seen any: perhaps contained in one of the advice or guidance documents on their website? Nor can I find the Ivy's own online society rules, that the prospectus also refers to. I'm not a subscriber, btw, just an interested observer. I dare say this is all WIP.

[Sue]

ianr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I dare say this is all WIP.

xxxxxx

I had to look that up :))

[Penguin68]

'One ale. Nothing else on draft'. 'that they only sell proper English beer'

Interestingly beer (brewed with hops as a preservative) only started replacing ales (which didn't keep) in about the 1520s in England, using imported hops. Beer, as a drink, is thus not 'proper English' - only a (relatively) recently imported concept (and was treated by some of the public at the time much as lagered beer was much later). Beer was of benefit to commercial brewers because of its keeping capabilities - ales were traditionally home brewed.

Very few real (non-hop) ales are now brewed (although beers are very often called 'ale' for marketing purposes). We have grown, inter alia to like the bitter taste that hops bring - and of course now hops are grown in the UK. In the past ales were flavoured with honey, rosemary and other herbs.

[DulwichFox]

All very quiet here... 3 weeks no update...

Even us non share holders would like to know when this place is likely to open...

DulwichFox

[MrBen]

Even after all your moans about it Fox?

There have been plenty of regular updates for shareholders one the past few weeks and a few decent volunteering opportunities for cleaning helping them get ready. There is a manager appointed, builders are finishing the accommodation upstairs and a Goose is Out night has even managed to steal a night of it's own before any official launch.

There's a lot to do and still a number of variables out of their control and in the hands of bureaucracy. I predict September/October ish.

[MrBen]

...and 320 shareholders are all looking forward to it.

[DJKillaQueen]

And if every one of those shareholders spends ?36 each, EVERY week in there, it will achieve it's predicted takings ;)

[BrandNewGuy]

... Yeah, because businesses only ever get custom from their shareholders... Sheesh.

[Lilly Potes]

So do you Mean I can open my businesses Ironing only shirts or shits

[KidKruger]

ironing shits is not recommended, you'll never get a decent crease and the vent holes in your iron will get clogged-up.

best roll it in glitter and let it dry in the sun.

[Lilly Potes]

yES YOU RIGHT WAS LEFT IN SUN FOR TOO LONG NOW. IS BEST TO PUT IT AWAY OR KEEP IT INSIDE YOU KNOW ! SHITS HAPPEN

IF YOU ARE NOT HONEST AND TO PLAY WITH PEOPLES MINDS IS NOT HEALTHY FOR ANYBODY.