Ivy House share issue:

[IvyHouseCommunityPub]

5 days left to buy shares in the Ivy House! We have just reached our target of ?100,000 in pledges but a number of these have not been paid for yet. We want to reinstate the second front bar and the more shares we sell, the more work we can do to the pub to make it a truly fabulous venue. So we're going to keep working hard on promoting the share issue up until the very last minute - every share purchase counts, no matter how big or small. Thanks to all who have bought to date. Everyone else, please join us and buy your shares here:

www.ivyhousenunhead.com

Ivy House Community Pub Ltd, Stuart Road, Nunhead SE15

[Huggers]

ivy house website not accepting 'submit'for share app.

[h1981]

Huggers Wrote:

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> ivy house website not accepting 'submit'for share

> app.

Hi there. Seems to be working fine now - please PM me if there's further problems!

[howdood]

Hi Huggers - we have had share orders coming in via the website continually yesterday afternoon and this morning, and have just re-tested the website ourselves; it is working, as far as we can make out. Usually the reason for the share form refusing to submit is that one of the fields has not been filled out correctly (in which has it should display an error message next to the field in question); apart from that the most likely reason for it not working would be that you have javascript disabled in your web browser. If you've ruled those options out, then please do email us directly at [email protected] with details of which browser and OS you're using and we'll try to track the issue down further.

h

ps: you can also order shares by post using the form at the back of the share prospectus.

[Huggers]

ah, I had separated the didgits of my phone number

[Sue]

Finally got round to buying shares - last minute? not me! - but your Account Name (Ivy House Community Pub Limited) has too many letters to fit into the First Direct payment box, so I sincerely hope the payment reaches "Ivy House Communit" !

Also I have still not received the promised email with the transfer details - though a side result was that I discovered that many Ivy House emails had been going into my spam folder :) - so there seems to be something wrong there?

Not a problem as I copied and pasted the details from your website, but I'm a bit paranoid about getting digits wrong after reading hideous scare stories in the press ......

Anyway, looking forward to many happy hours spent in a community pub which I now part-own :))

ETA: If you haven't already bought shares, and you want to invest in your community, here's the link - just click and buy :)

http://www.ivyhousenunhead.com/shares.php

[TopTree]

Don?t think your shares mean that you are part-owner?

[Sue]

TopTree Wrote:

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> Don?t think your shares mean that you are

> part-owner?

xxxxxxx

Well it still feels as if I am :))

[DulwichFox]

Shares and Shared Ownership are two different things.

Shared Ownership is where a group of people who are not individually able to buy a proprerty

do so in a joint partnership.

You are responsible for the maintenace of the property and all associated costs.

Insurance, Council Tax, Busines rates etc. just as you are with you own home.

Shares are what you buy in a PLC and are subject to various levels of risk.

If the company goes bust, you lose all your money.

If they make money you might make money if the share price rises.

When you sell your shares you will be subject to CGT. Capital Gains Tax.

It's compltecated.

Do not understand what is the case with the Ivy House deal. ?

Is it shares or shared ownership.

Cannot see how anyone can make any money.

Who pays the bills.?

DulwichFox.

[Gubodge]

Dulwich fox - community shares are a way for social enterprises (businesses with a charitable or community purpose) to raise money and for people to invest in this sort of enterprise. Sometimes community shares don't pay a dividend, but they do offer part ownership and voting rights - usually one shareholder-one-vote as opposed to one-share-one vote so are very democratic. You can generally withdraw your money and, depending on the success of the enterprise, get a dividend.

So they are a way to support good causes but rather different to donating money. They help social ventures access start up capital, which can be hard to get otherwise.

see link below

http://www.communityshares.org.uk/sites/default/files/resources/investing_in_community_shares.pdf

[DJKillaQueen]

It's just an investment scheme Fox to raise start up costs. Not a share ownership scheme as such and I think a lot of people are buying shares to give it a chance to get going rather than expecting any return.

I still don't think it'll make the expected revenue (of ?8k per week on the bar) predicted in it's business plan. Spoke with someone who was going to buy the pub when it was up for auction until he saw the books and decided not to buy. It was taking 6k for a couple of months at the height of it last being open (which is what I would have predicted its optimum range to be from the kind of events based pub it was), with an average of 4.5k weekly, and then a sudden drop off towards the end. And no-one in the pub business locally thinks an expected revenue of ?3k per week from food is realistic.

From a business perspective I think it's going to struggle, under its current cashflow projection. Having said that though, there is 20% leeway on running costs vs predicted revenue so if it can bring in revenue of around ?6k a week then it should break even, but that would have to be every week.

[honeybee79]

Hi everyone

I'm one of the co-founders of Ivy House Community Pub Limited. To clarify:

1. What Gubodge stated at 6.49pm is correct. Our community shares carry voting rights (we have adopted the principle of one member, one vote so everyone has an equal vote regardless of the size of their investment), part ownership and the right to an interest payment on shares in the event of sufficient distributable profits. So what Sue says is correct - a shareholder owns part of Ivy House Community Pub Limited and Ivy House Community Pub Limited is the registered owner of the freehold.

2. Ivy House Community Pub Limited is responsible for paying all utility bills, salaries and for the upkeep of the building.

3. Community shares are an investment, not a charitable donation. If you want to find out more then please go to the link that Gubodge posted - www.communityshares.org.uk

4. Our shares prospectus explains the principle of limited liability which will apply to share purchases in the unlikely event that our organisation becomes insolvent.

5. DJKillaQueen - the figures you are quoting are based on the previous tenant's attempts to run a business from the building. They do not relate to our business, which is based on an entirely different model. To start off with, we will own the freehold and be entirely free of tie, which is something of a game changer. The financial viability of our business is also written by community shares, ie a community of over 200 people who have invested in the building and can't wait for it to re-open. We are content that our estimates are realistic. All our shareholders will have access to our audited accounts at the end of our financial year. Time will tell.

7. I am no tax expert and anyone concerned about tax implications should speak to their accountant. However, community shares cannot increase in value and so capital gains tax (CGT) does not apply.

Please read our prospectus or contact us if you have any further questions. Glad to see the Ivy Housebis sparking lively debate and remaining at the top of the forum!

Thanks to all who have bought shares to date.

[Sue]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Cannot see how anyone can make any money.

>

xxxxxxx

Speaking only for myself, I am not buying community shares in The Ivy House in order to "make money", though of course it would be nice if at some point there was a small dividend.

I am buying shares in order to invest in a brilliant community initiative which has already brought lots of people together and I have no doubt will continue to do so in the future. I also wanted to be involved in saving a great venue which has an interesting history, including musically.

Having read the business plan and spoken to the members of the core group, I have every confidence that this initiative will succeed.

The fact that the target for community shares has been reached suggests that many other people share my confidence.

[DJKillaQueen]

Honeybee, whilst I want the pub to succeed I think the business model is just not being realistic with the projected takings. The last people running it were putting on music nights, comedy nights etc and working very hard to bring people in and they couldn't even get close to 6k every week. The pub would need to fill the place on Friday and Saturday nights with 120 people spending on average ?30 a head to get anywhere near that, and that's just not going happen week in, week out, unless it becomes a night club or party venue (and the local residents won't allow that to happen). High spend days here and there are not going to be enough. It's nothing to do with freehold etc.....it's from looking at the figures of the pub's business plan. I haven't yet found a single person in the bar business who thinks the pub will achieve those targets. But as you say, we'll see.

[honeybee79]

DJKillaQueen - As I explained, the previous tenant's business model is not the same as ours. The building itself does not constitute the business so there is no value in rehashing the previous tenant's figures if, indeed, the figures you state are accurate. Having spent the last 13 months researching, analysing, campaigning and buying the pub, this is what I know:

1. I'm afraid that it is everything to do with owning the freehold and being free of tie. The economics of the beer tie mean that tied licensees face an uphill battle to make a profit. The previous tenant was a tied licensee and had to buy drinks through the pubco, Enterprise Inns. The difference between what you pay through a pub co such as Enterprise and what you pay when you buy direct from your suppliers is stark. One publican has described how he has been forced to pay prices for some draft beers that are more than 66% above market value. You can read an account of tied publicans' predicament here: www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10080033/Historic-pub-to-stop-serving-pints-in-protest-at-beer-tie-fees.html. The beer tie stifles the profitability of pubs up and down the country and affected the Ivy House when it was owned by Enterprise.

2. You're confusing the building with the business. The outgoing tenant's business is not ours. The outgoing tenant's bar manager did the best he could under the circumstances and worked extremely hard - years of underinvestment by the pubco and the beer tie squeezed profits. The circumstances that we face differ dramatically. We are free to negotiate the best deals possible directly with our suppliers. This puts us at a huge advantage. Also, as owners of the freehold, all profits from the residential lettings above will accrue to us, not to an absent landlord as they did before.

3. Do not underestimate how important a successful community share issue will be to the viability of the Ivy House. You say that you do not believe the pub will be successful. I say that we have 285 people who have ordered shares and think otherwise. All of our shareholders want to drink in the pub, use it as a venue for community events and celebrations, and see it succeed.

Clearly shares in the Ivy House are not for you and that is fine! But lots of people think otherwise and see immense potential in the building and a chance to transform our community.

[DulwichFox]

One big problem is geographical location.

Surrounded by a Park, Allotnments and a Cemetary, the area is realatively sparsely populated.

Even in the 70's when famous bands played there, the place was not packed out with customers.

Back in those days having a Couple of pints and driving was acceptable and within legal limits.

Many people were happy to sit and watch the bands with a pint or two.

The place could not survive on a few customers sipping a couple of pints.

Although people tend to drink more these days, especially shots and bottled beers, people may well

give the place a try, but I cannot see them making it their regular venue.

It is not best served by Public Transport and people aresimply not going to drive there.

And a trudge across the park in the wet weather will put off most people. Especially with th

Newly opened Clock House within closer reach.

I wish any new Venue all the best but when it comes to investment I have to say "I'm Out"

Dragon Fox

[Jeremy]

That's the problem for me personally, the pub is a long long walk from where I live, with no obvious public transport route.

But if all the investors are planning to drink there regularly, then it sounds like they're half way there already. And if they can undercut places like The Clockhouse due to the lack of beer tie, then that should also help.

[lane lover]

I agree with Dragon Fox.

Pubs these days are like owning a football club. Its a nice asset to have, but wont make money.

I'm out.

[DJKillaQueen]

I'm not confusing anything Honeybee. My view is based on looking at the revenue figures the business plan presents (nothing to do with profit margins whatsoever). No local pub off Lordship Lane, that I know of, is taking that kind of bar renvenue every week. ?3k on food revenue each week is wildly optimistic too.

I've managed a bar (which is the cheapest in the area by far) for five years that has no ties with breweries, freehold or anything like that. I know what profit margins are achievable and what local people spend.

The people who have bought shares are not going to each be spending ?45 every week in the Ivy House (which is what they need to spend on food and drink there every week to achive the projected revenue targets). I think people believe in and like the essence and spirit of the venture, but that's not going to be enough long term.

Fox is spot on regarding the pubs location. The local residential population don't go there. There are no business sectors locally to provide a vibrant lunchtime trade. That's why it had to be an events based pub, attracting a wider based clientel going there for the comedy or music nights etc.

This idea that it can provide some kind of community space that isn't available elsewhere locally is a red herring too. There are several church and community halls within spitting distance of the Ivy house that already provide cheap (and free) rehearsal and group space.

I fully expect a revision of figures to be needed once the intial buzz of the reopening has waned.

[h1981]

The local residential population DO go there (when it was last open obviously) - that is why there was a huge outcry when the pub closed down. Granted in the past it had a reputation as somewhere many locals didn't go to - I spoke to one bloke who lived around the corner for 25 years and the only time he went inside the place was at Stuart Road's Silver Jubilee street party when he was 5. It rained and he went in the pub. The other memory he had was an armed siege in the 90s. But that has changed. Nearly 300 people, many in this apparently "sparsely populated" area have invested in the pub, because they believe in its resurrection as a centre of a vibrant local community (and a fabulous venue for those further afield). Some of those people remember the place from the 40s, 50s and 60s and are thrilled to see what is happening. In reference to the point about there being other community spaces in spitting distance, by way of an example of what's going on, a couple of long-standing residents have told me of their disappointment that they are no longer able to meet where they used to (am not sure which community space this is) and are looking forward to the prospect of reminiscence groups at the pub. And that will be one of many things going on during the day - mark my words! (please)

I promised myself not to fire off a response here and will probably regret it, but I never get the location thing. I never moan about the Gowlett being in the wrong place, yet will happily walk to there and plenty of other places in East Dulwich/Peckham (I live near the Ivy House you may have guessed!). To say the pub has problems with its geographical location is to ignore the many people that live around here. It also rather implies that the world stops at Peckham Rye Common.

And relax.

[StraferJack]

Tenants hall isn't a bar in the sense of how most people view bars/pubs tho is it DJKQ?

I've been there, had a good time and I mean no disrespect when I say it isn't where I would take the family and papers for a Sunday lunch, or even stop off for a swift half on way home for work

I imagine the prognosis for the Wishing Well in peckham was similarly negative. But say what you will about capital pubs, they created a busy busy pub from nowhere.

The Ivy House has its challenges ahead. But it's certainly possible

Edited to zap most of the typos

[James Barber]

Blimey DJKQ,

A bunch of locals make great use of coalition legislation and you poo poo it. I genuinely think being a freehouse will make a big difference.

So personally, after lot of thought, have bought some shares.

[Mattsoper]

As someone who lives just round the corner from The Ivy House and who's been following the campaign to bring it back into use since just before its closure last year, I think that it does have a viable future, whether the existing business plan works out or needs to be revised.

That's not blind optimism as I appreciate all the challenges mentioned in this thread so far, though I do think the venue is distinctive enough to draw people in from the surrounding area as it's very different from all the other pubs nearby.

I've bought my shares in hope that The Ivy House remains a pub long into the future. I didn't do it to make a profit and I accept that it's money I won't get back if for any reason the business fails.

Anyone who isn't comfortable with that risk or expects a financial return: buying these shares isn't for you.

However, if you care enough about keeping a unusual London pub in business then come along as often as money allows to have a few drinks and a good time - even if you can't afford or don't want to buy shares.

I'm sure it won't be an easy ride keeping the place going but the team working on its rescue have overcome some pretty huge obstacles so far and are not going to give up without trying everything possible. It's not too much to ask for the rest of us to do our bit by turning up and drinking booze.

[Jeremy]

Well said SJ and JB.

I didn't mean to suggest that the location was a problem per se, just that it would prevent me personally from becoming a frequent visitor (only went there twice, to see bands).

[Mick Mac]

I wish the new venture good luck. I have only been there once in 10 years as its a bit of a stroll, but I hope people more local than me can keep it busy. Look forward to hearing whats on there in the future.