Govt e-petition re school time hols

[Saffron]

Yes. I don't disagree. So why did the government feel the need to interfere at all? Pointless smokescreen.

[curlykaren]

bornagain, I can assure you that I am not a member of the squezzed middle classes but in fact stupidly poor and you are quite right, when my child starts school, I will never be able to afford to take him anywhere.

Being poor however doesn't mean that I don't know the educational and personal value of travel. When wealthier parents are buying their kids the latest most expensive gear are they considering the impact of their actions on other children/parents/wider community? Of course not.

As our children are supposed to have their own personal learning journey it doesn't make the slightest difference to anyone else if he occasionally misses time for educational trips.

[bornagain]

Hi curlykaren, I'm sorry to hear that you are upset by your predicament and my comments. My comments come partly from being a parent and partly from my experiences as a teacher.

It sounds like your child is still very young but as they get older, some lessons can be quite important (for eg. learning a key maths concept) and is best if as few children miss the lesson as possible.

I totally agree with you that our children should have their own personal learning journey. My point is that if term-time holidays were allowed, in all probability a significant number of children will be absent at one time or another for a significant period of time (ie a week or more). This will be a real distractor for both teacher and class (and your child will also suffer when other children are absent for their holidays).

As for the hike in prices during holiday time, its a total nightmare - for families and teachers too.

[Saffron]

bornagain Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My point

> is that if term-time holidays were allowed, in all

> probability a significant number of children will

> be absent at one time or another for a significant

> period of time (ie a week or more). This will be a

> real distractor for both teacher and class ...

Well, since you're a teacher and stressing the importance of key mathematical concepts, on exactly what data is your "significant number" based? I can't see any data supporting that prediction.

Actually if a minimun number of non-sick days off were allowed as a discretionary part of the system, parents might be more likely to work with the schools, scheduling days off so that there would not be disruptive overlap of absent students / students absent from key lessons.

Taking DaveR's example from above, at ?50 fine, parents who really want to take their children out during term time for whatever reason have no incentive to work with the school or other parents. Likewise, ?50 is unlikely to be a deterent either. So, it's not a real solution either.

What is the solution? Not sure. BUT, criminalising parents who take their children out for a minimal number of term time absences seems crazy. I'd also wager a guess that it goes against some of the current human rights legislation.

[bornagain]

Saffron, I was only taking an example of a mathematical concept as an example - of course I don't have any data about a 'significant number'. I think my point is the rights of the individual vs the benefits of the many.

[Saffron]

Well, that's exactly columnist Polly Curtis's point as well, but she comes to an entirely different conclusion: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/20/banning-term-time-holidays.

As a school governor I know that there are many families who simply can't afford to visit relatives overseas or spend time abroad at all during the holidays. The last government tried to do deals with travel companies to make it more affordable, but to no effect. Should families that struggle to afford it be barred from those experiences?

There is clearly a problem with parents advocating truancy, but perhaps the answer isn't just to criminalise parents further but to strike a new deal whereby they can take a limited amount of time off to avoid the extortionate airfares and spend time with family ? time that might, just occasionally, be more valuable than school. In exchange parents would be expected to send their child to school every other day in the school calendar perhaps even with tougher penalties to help enforce it.

At the moment some parents take the whole 10 days off, which is a substantial chunk of school to miss while others are criminalised when they allow their children to truant ? or fail to stop them. I think we need a more transparent system with an acknowledged deal between schools and parents that strikes a compromise between the child's right to a consistent education and a family's right, within reason, to make its memories.

Plus it looks like Gove's legislation is in conflict with Article 8 of the Human Rights Act: 'Right to Respect for Private and Family Life'. Not exactly what I'd call well-thought, evidenced-based legislation, but then Gove isn't really known for that.

[oimissus]

Isn't this just another cost of having children? I mean, surely people are aware that when they choose to have children, that come schooldays, holidays (if taken at all) will have to be taken in the school holidays and therefore at a more expensive time. It's not a big surprise, is it? And I don't quite see where it is 'right' to have a holiday away - we haven't for a couple of years - can't afford it. Them's the breaks. Miss Oi has never met her Australian cousins and probably won't for quite some time unless some kind GP forks out for the fares - again, them's the breaks. And a lot of holidays are not educational - my Bil's sister takes her kids out for 2 weeks every year to go to Spain, and has done for years - can they speak Spanish, or know much about Spanish culture? No. Typical Brits abroad, eating and speaking English, they may as well (apart from the weather) be in Bognor. No education going on there!

[bornagain]

I tend to agree with oimissus that we all went into parenthood knowing that taking holidays in school holidays was a known sacrifice that we will have to make for 15 years or so. Could much of this clamour for allowing term time leave are from the parents themselves wanting a cheaper holiday abroad? Most of the children I know (esp teenagers) would prefer to stay really close to home and hang out with their friends in ED. The younger ones would be just as happy taking a bucket and spade to a beach in Kent!

[katgod]

The point us that there has been this flexibility and it is being removed. Until this September it was allowed. I would be happy for the flexibility to be reduced to 5 days as in the article above. There has not been chaos, or educational failure as a result of this up to now. If you haven't used it fair enough. My son after 5 years in school has had this flex applied for a grand total of 2 days. So I am not merrily taking him out of school for a fortnight each year. But it is his granddad's 70th coming up and we are planning a long weekend to celebrate. I do not think that should count as truanting. Hopefully none if you ever have a family event that might require a day or 2 off school.

[curlykaren]

katgod, that sums up my feelings exactly. The flexibility has existed without wholesale chaos and was in existance when I chose to have my son. When I tell my 93 yr old grandmother that her youngest great grand child can't go to her birthday celebration without us being fined she is, quite rightly, going to think its bonkers. Not sure that at 93 she will be still around when he finishes school or that my son will learn to value and respect old people by being forced to miss it.

A year ago my mum decided to delay retirement to save for the holiday of a life time visiting the baby whales in mexico, a trip like that can completly change a childs future, sparking a profound love of nature and the enviroment, a future in marine biology? Who knows? I do know if he doesn't get to do it until he leaves school his educational choices will already have been made. Perhaps the Whales could be persuaded to birth only during school hols?