depressing education article

[DaveR]

"parents don't want "choice."

Some of us do. How do you "scrap" private schools - make it a crime to operate one, or to send your kid to one? Create a black market for extra maths tuition?

It's perfectly legitimate for a government to make fairness (rather than quality) the main criterion in the provision of state education, but what right does any government have to impose on individual parents the obligation to send a child to a single school operated on particular ideological lines? This is not just a question about money but about freedom - there is currently no legal obligation to send a child to school at all.

[macker]

david_carnell Wrote:

> I'll ignore the thinly veiled personal jibe.

No jibe intended! That bit was meant to be tongue in cheek.

[Brendan]

Well if such a system was instated the regional education departments should be answerable to the public (in one direction) and the government (in the other) for the quality of the education they provided. What constitutes ?good? education would have to be a benchmark set against first national then international standards.

I can feel the old hammer and sickle coming out here again.

[david_carnell]

Amazingly James, I like it too. We are getting along rather well at the moment. Then again I'm not feeling too well at the moment so maybe our mutual loathing will return shortly ;-)

One point. The exam at 11 would merely to ensure all schools have equal numbers of all abilities? It is not a binding result that ties that child to a particular stream or band for the rest of his or her education? They must be free to move around in ability as they progress?

Would you be in favour of streaming in each school? I think the cleverest would do better in this situation but would it leave the poor performing children behind? I went to a selective state school and even in that there were further differentiations in ability. Being stuck in the bottom maths set wasn't much fun I can tell you. But no doubt I would have held those that did brilliantly at Maths back if I was in their class.

And now I'm wondering if you would do it for individual classes, why not whole schools? Is that not logical?

Edit: Now worries Macker. Sarcasm and irony are pretty difficult to get across on t'internet. And emoticons are pretty naff even if I do us them myself.

[snorky]

In a fair & just society, there would be no real advantage in spending your ? to send your offspring to a private school and they would wither and die

the booming and competitive Private skool industry in the UK just goes to hightlight how thingzs have indeed changed in the past 50 years , but I fear for the worst

despite ther Independant skool cartel arguing that their admission policy / charitable status/ scholarships etc are indeed more egalitatian and wide ranging than ever, it is indeed a load of old shite and only the gullible and blinkered would bother trotting out such transparent rubbish

/;end of snorky rant. for the time being

[blinder999]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "parents don't want "choice."

>

> Some of us do. How do you "scrap" private schools

> - make it a crime to operate one, or to send your

> kid to one? Create a black market for extra maths

> tuition?

if the purpose of these schools is to give averagely-intelligent kids a leg up into (largely state-funded) universities, then perhaps the government could cap the percentage of kids from any given school that can go there.

After all, Oxbridge aren't getting the brightest kids - they're getting a load of kids expensively schooled in the art of passing A Levels, and the Oxbridge entrance exams.

[david_carnell]

blinder999 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> After all, Oxbridge aren't getting the brightest

> kids - they're getting a load of kids expensively

> schooled in the art of passing A Levels, and the

> Oxbridge entrance exams.

I sometimes wonder about this. If there is anything to be said (and I'm loathed to admit it) for the output of public schools is that the pupils tend to be more than exam-passing automatons. Sports play a bigger role and social skills are developed further.

The pressure on state-schools to climb league tables forces them to ignore this aspect of education and focus on nothing other than memorising text books. When those pupils reach university and have to think for themselves it is often their undoing.

[blinder999]

david_carnell Wrote:

> I sometimes wonder about this. If there is

> anything to be said (and I'm loathed to admit it)

> for the output of public schools is that the

> pupils tend to be more than exam-passing

> automatons. Sports play a bigger role and social

> skills are developed further.

I'm sure that's true - you'd really be wasting your money if you spent ?90,000 on a lad's education and he still wasn't quite a gentleman

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Text books in state schools?? Surely you mean scrappy bits of photocopied pages.

[macker]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> Text books in state schools?? Surely you mean

> scrappy bits of photocopied pages.

Scrappy bits of photocopied pages? Luxury! We had to make do with reading chicken droppings left in the schools's hen-house, both ways! (sucks teeth)

[DaveR]

"In a fair & just society"

That's what it comes down to - do you want fairness and justice (determined by the particular view of what is just and fair of whoever holds the political power at the relevant time) or do you want freedom, where individuals and familes can pursue what they want, within a legal framework for balancing competing rights. I favour the latter (you may be surprised to know)

Incidentally, I was educated in the state system and hope that my kids will be too - there's no substitute for having most of your friends living round the corner.

[Brendan]

?freedom, where individuals and familes can pursue what they want, within a legal framework for balancing competing rights?

Presumably then there would be no state education at all but only private providers competing with one another. So where will your kids go then?

[DaveR]

"Presumably then there would be no state education at all but only private providers competing with one another. So where will your kids go then?"

Most historians date the advent of state education in the UK to the Balfour Education Act in 1902. Before that schools were provided by a combination of voluntary societies, churches, elected local school boards etc. There is very little evidence that the immediate effect of the Act was to make provision better or more widespread (well over 90% of primary age children were already in school) - it just changed control from local and varied to national and uniform.

I think local and varied is good.

[Brendan]

Good bit of history there but education in the UK has to compete with other countries so a national standard benchmarked against how it performs internationally would perhaps be more helpful than; Well we used to do it this way so that must be good.

The UKs state education, while not the worst there is, is certainly not the best.

Coincidentally a lot of that I think is down to what D_C mentioned earlier about education being more than just memorising text books and passing tests.

[James]

David - in response to your query, absolutely, I wouldn't want anyone 'locked into' the same stream for long periods of time. They should be able to move up and down as necessary.

Dave R - in response to your point about parents having the right to choose private or faith schools or whatever. This is absolutely right in principle. I suppose the problem is the mistaken belief that market forces and that magic word "choice" are the answer to everything. It is a complete illusion. We're not selling baked beans or broadband internet, where market forces work to drive up standards. When it comes to education, the raw material is people, who cannot be re-engineered. Meaning that any attempt to create a market will simply result in a kind of social apartheid where the most able are creamed off to excel while the least advantaged are left to rot.

I was forced to choose private for my son, as the state school he was offered is terrible. So I am contributing to the whole situation. But who can blame me, or the many others that do? We have to work within the system that exists - a system riddled with unfairness and inequality. And when it comes down to it, I have to do what's best for my son.

As I see it, the only solution is what I described in my earlier post - proper and total comprehensivization. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen...

[DaveR]

James, I believe the direct opposite. Abandon the belief that "proper and total comprehensivization" is either desirable or achievable, and give as much power to parents as possible. When kids are left to rot it's either because their parents couldn't care less (and that's another issue) or because they are powerless.

[James]

If you do that you end up with a rabid underclass of underprivileged, unemployable kids causing mayhem in schools and on the streets. We all end up paying for the havoc this causes through increased crime and taxation.

Do you seriously believe that the parents of children like these are empowered by 'choice'? That they give two hoots about where their children are going to school? Many don't even care whether they go to school or not!

[citizenED]

That's why I suggested that the most underprivileged kids get sent to the top schools (I wasn't actually joking). Society should invest in it's children. It seems terribly unfair that children are "left to rot....because their parents couldn't care less".

[DaveR]

I did say that's another issue, and to make it clear what I mean is that it cannot be addressed solely, or even primarily via the education system. There are plenty of kids from homes with not a lot of cash whose parents are nevertheless just as keen that they get a good education as your typical stereotype pushy middle class lot. Those parents are less likely to have (i) the financial ability to move to find a good school or (ii) the time or belief that they can challenge the educational bureaucracy. Make individual schools more accountable to the communities they serve, and make a positive effort to allow all parents a voice, and the majority will prevail. And as we all agree, the majority of parents want a decent education for their kids.....

[James]

Agreed with everything you said Dave, until this bit:

>Make individual schools more accountable to the communities they serve, and make a positive effort to allow all parents a voice, and the majority will prevail.

What with league tables, faith schools and so on, I think schools are bending over backwards to try to serve their communities. They have to, to get bums on seats. It seems that the education system is being run as if the parents were paying customers and of course, the "customer's always right." Well no actually, the customer is always self-interested and the way it is now is a perfect example of our individualistic society.

I think we need to shift a bit of power back to the teachers, away from the parents. They are the ones who have to do the work after all! And they are the ones (the good teachers, at least) who have everyone's best interests in mind. Not just darling little Fenella who really is so gifted and deserves more attention than anyone else.

[Marmora Man]

snorky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In a fair & just society, there would be no real

> advantage in spending your ? to send your

> offspring to a private school and they would

> wither and die

>

This was beginning to happen in the 60's - then Tony Crossland Labour Minister for Education (ex public school / Oxbridge) pledged to get rid of "every f****** grammar school" and experiment with the comprehensive system. Market forces ruled and as selective education was phased out a parallel growth of independent schooling began.

If a similar effort had been put into improving the effective but sometimes flawed the Grammar / Technical / Secondary Modern system the public schools (probably with the exception of a few "old school tie" places) would, indeed, have withered away.

I went to a country grammar school from a village primary. The primary had 90 children,six classes and three teachers, no privilege there. The grammar school prided itself on always placing one or two 6th formers, and in good years more, at Oxbridge, often via scholarships. It did not have to abide by an National Curriculum and masters (the good ones) were able to enthuse pupils with their subjects.

Britain had a good working education system in the 60's: it needed some minor improvements but it was ruined by political ideology - and some of the rhetoric on this thread smacks of the same ideology. Nationalising education isn't the way to go - greater freedom is the future. Abolish the national curriculum, let funds follow the pupil, let parents groups, churches, and businesses set up schools, allow schools to flourish or fail.

[Brendan]

In the system I was educated in, at least at our local level, the government schools were as good as and in some cases better than the private ones. So it is achievable.

[????]

of course there was a state educational syatem that was beginning to make private education redundant....but it was abolished in the 'glorious sixties' when we went comprehensive.......

[macker]

Marmora Man Wrote:

> Britain had a good working education system in the

> 60's: it needed some minor improvements but it was

> ruined by political ideology - and some of the

> rhetoric on this thread smacks of the same

> ideology. Nationalising education isn't the way to

> go - greater freedom is the future.

Hear hear.

[Brendan]

I see what you?re saying but it can just as easily be interpreted as, ?Greater choice for those of us who can afford it and tough luck to those whose parents cant.?

Personally I am going to work my arse off to send my kids to the best school I possibly can because I feel I will owe that to them as from what I have heard of uk state education from fiends who are teachers, it is pretty poor. But that doesn?t mean that I think it is fair.

I strongly feel that a country as rich as this one should provide all of its children with an equally high level of well rounded education.