Dangerous Drivers

[LondonMix]

DJK- I agree with that. I avoid the round about in my journey in by taking a long loop around it. I'm no where near confident enough as a cyclist to use it as is.

[*Bob*]

Ultimately, you're up against somebody stabilised on four wheels with limited visibility, surrounded by armour-plating, crumple zones, cradled in soft leather, heated by a gentle air-conditioned breeze with their tunes playing as they chat on the phone or with their passengers.

I'd stick with the warzone mindset. It's your best chance of not getting squashed.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree with that JohnL. And that is what happens in cities with the better working transport plans.

[LadyDeliah]

LondonMix, so would it be fair to say your experience of the roads is mainly as a pedestrian and user of public transport?

So I would suggest that your time mixing with non-pedestrian road users is a small proportion of your time and you are more likely to be in danger of being hit by bicycles as you would usually walk on the pavement and cyclists are most often closer to the pavement side of the road. Their silent approach, would I imagine, more often take you by surprise than the engine of any other vehicle.

When you do cycle, are you more afraid of being hit by a car or a cyclist? Do you cycle to work or short local journeys? Are you a confident cyclist? Do you feel able to assert yourself when cycling amongst aggressive drivers? Do you think cyclists who are assertive in this way are somehow arseholes and if not, what would you define as arseholey behaviour from a cyclist?

[LadyDeliah]

Wow, it got a bit lively there while I was busy typing in my phone!

Loving the engaging posts and after *Bob*'s telling off, I promise to try my best not to do the them and us stuff. It's not always easy though because im no Mandella and when cyclists get abuse on such a regular basis I kind of get the hump!

[TillieTrotter]

More than likely LadyD. But I actually don't feel that motorists have more right than any other road users. We all need to learn to share the roads and behave responsibly. Unfortunately one tends to tune out if others views are too extremist.

[DJKillaQueen]

I have cycled accross it LM but am always expectant of the driver cutting to go left.....it really is a challenge even for the most confident of cyclists. Whereas the simple answer would be to use the island as a radial cycle crossing point controlled by lights. Cyclists should never be forced to go around such a huge island with three lanes of traffic crossing around it.

[LadyDeliah]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

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> More than likely LadyD. But I actually don't feel

> that motorists have more right than any other road

> users. We all need to learn to share the roads

> and behave responsibly. Unfortunately one tends

> to tune out if others views are too extremist.

I agree and am trying to do the magnanimous Mandella stuff now. Peace and love :-)

[TillieTrotter]

Back atcha.

[LondonMix]

I cycle locally a lot (pretty much every weekend) in good weather. I also cycle to work a few days a week from Spring to early autumn (which is in the City). I'm not a very confident cyclist and prefer back roads or roads with cycle super highways on them. I actually took cycle lessons to increase my confidence a while back and have become more assertive since then but would say I'm pretty defensive (I love my brain and spine as they are and am totally unwilling to take any risks even if I am in the right).

When I cycle I am mostly afraid of being hit by a truck or bus. In general I find cars are pretty decent with me (maybe because I am a bit slow and non-aggressive). I might be afraid of buses though because my husband was clipped by one (he?s fine).

As a pedestrian, I?ve almost been hit by bikes illegally speeding through pedestrian crossing many times. I have many friends who cycle listening to music which I think is utter madness!

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> LondonMix, so would it be fair to say your

> experience of the roads is mainly as a pedestrian

> and user of public transport?

>

> So I would suggest that your time mixing with

> non-pedestrian road users is a small proportion of

> your time and you are more likely to be in danger

> of being hit by bicycles as you would usually walk

> on the pavement and cyclists are most often closer

> to the pavement side of the road. Their silent

> approach, would I imagine, more often take you by

> surprise than the engine of any other vehicle.

>

>

> When you do cycle, are you more afraid of being

> hit by a car or a cyclist? Do you cycle to work

> or short local journeys? Are you a confident

> cyclist? Do you feel able to assert yourself when

> cycling amongst aggressive drivers? Do you think

> cyclists who are assertive in this way are somehow

> arseholes and if not, what would you define as

> arseholey behaviour from a cyclist?

[binary_star]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Not sure how that contradicts anything I said.

> Unless you don't think cyclists can ever behave in

> a dangerous way, I'm not sure what your point is

> besides being obnoxious.

My point is to challenge statements that maintain that cyclists are dangerous road users based on no actual evidence whatsoever. Unless you're talking comparatively it's a rather pointless statement to make since anything and anyone has the POTENTIAL to be or become dangerous.

I realise I am coming across as a bit obnoxious but it's REALLY frustrating to hear people make sweeping statements all the time when they're just not warranted.

[*Bob*]

binary_star Wrote:

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it's REALLY frustrating to hear people make

> sweeping statements all the time when they're just

> not warranted.

You let the one in the opening post pass though, right?

[LadyDeliah]

Cycling through pedestrians at speed whether on a crossing or not is clearly a twatish thing to do, but going ahead of the cars at a junction, even before the lights have changed to green is in my opinion a legitimate life saving tactic (so long as the traffic going the other direction has stopped).

The laws of the road were drafted mainly with motorists in mind, so it is my view that some things which are currently unlawful should be looked at again and amended if it makes cycling safer.

[numbers]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> It's not about sides. It's about looking at the

> most serious problems and finding solutions that

> reduce harm.

>

> Trying to raise awareness of the situation from

> the point of view of those most likely to suffer

> the greatest harm is one way to start the

> dialogue, but it's also important to understand

> those causing the harm and their motivations.

>

> Like I said before, I don't think that I should

> have to feel like I'm travelling through a warzone

> when I cycle to and from work, so I want people to

> explore options that benefit the majority if the

> community, not just the ones in the biggest

> vehicles.

It's all very well and good trying to raise awareness and start a dialogue LadyD but star bob star's post about how you managed to antagonize the people you are trying to engage with in your first post nailed it for me, that's exactly how I felt after reading it too. The tone set throughout this whole thread hasn't been conducive to constructive discussion on what is an excellent subject that could do with being aired.

I don't own a car and don't drive (although I hold a licence) but I felt put off by the aggressive broad brush anti-driver statements throughout this thread, lumping people together like that is not on. I think many road users have had a mixed transport experience at a given point in their lives and this naturally colours their opinion. This thread comes across as very much 'them and us' when in reality I don't think its that clear cut.

I don't ride a motorcycle but I tend to think the majority of motorcyclists are the most considerate road users of all. I find motorcyclists when they drive cars display a good sense of awareness of what is around them and they leave plenty room when passing.

Of course you shouldn't have to feel like you're travelling through a war zone just to cycle to work and back. When I first started cycling to work in central London in the mid-90s I hated it, lived in fear of being squished by double-deckers and didn't feel I was given any space until I made it to Hyde Park. After an absence from London, I couldn't believe how much cycling had improved a decade later with noticeably more cyclists on the roads. It became the norm rather than the exception for colleagues to cycle to work.

I cycle in other cities when I visit them, Berlin is excellent and I wish London was the same. However, as you say perhaps planning & infrastructure is at fault here. Berlin was a building site with plenty scope to incorporate numerous cycle routes, separate from traffic, well-signposted and with cyclists who are diligent about obeying the rules.

['bout now]

Christ, someone just sent me this and I agree with it!

It's from the Mail, I need a shower, I feel dirty.

http://hanlonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/05/why-do-so-many-people-hate-cyclists.html

[numbers]

oooops took ages to post that, just seen lots of posts since which may or may not make my point redundant. apols if so.

[binary_star]

'bout now Wrote:

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> Christ, someone just sent me this and I agree with

> it!

>

> It's from the Mail, I need a shower, I feel

> dirty.

>

> http://hanlonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/05/why-do-s

> o-many-people-hate-cyclists.html

I agree with this guy (who is no angel)

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/cyclists_are_annoying_why_you_think_they_re_a_menace_on_two_wheels_.single.html

[binary_star]

'bout now Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Christ, someone just sent me this and I agree with

> it!

>

> It's from the Mail, I need a shower, I feel

> dirty.

>

> http://hanlonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/05/why-do-s

> o-many-people-hate-cyclists.html

I agree with this guy (who is no angel)

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/cyclists_are_annoying_why_you_think_they_re_a_menace_on_two_wheels_.single.html

[LadyDeliah]

Not sure I've got any more apologies in me *Bob* and numbers, so you'll have to make do with the ones I've already given.

[binary_star]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> binary_star Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> it's REALLY frustrating to hear people make

> > sweeping statements all the time when they're

> just

> > not warranted.

>

>

> You let the one in the opening post pass though,

> right?

Yeh because MY issue is with people singling out the most vulnerable (not dangerous) road users to have a go at. I'm not all the sympathetic to the most dangerous I'm afraid. That's my agenda - I've asked time and time again for everyone else's.

[numbers]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> Not sure I've got any more apologies in me *Bob*

> and numbers, so you'll have to make do with the

> ones I've already given.

very gracious of you ladyD, have just caught up with the posts in between now & spotted your apologies!

glad its not 'them and us' anymore ;-)

[Otta]

"It's about looking at the most serious problems and finding solutions that reduce harm."

Well then this is pointless.

No reasonable person is going to say that a motorist acting like a cunt t6owards cyclists is reasonable. But those motorists aren't going to give a shit what you think anyway, and will continue to act like cunts. All you can do is cycle carefully, and hope that you don't come across these particular motorists.

[LadyDeliah]

No Otta, we can press the powers that be for change in all the many ways that I and others on this thread have suggested.

Great article by the way binary_star. Really interesting analysis of peope's illogical focus on the few bad incidents rather than the wider picture.

[Otta]

"glad its not 'them and us' anymore"

Except where binary star is concerned it would seem.

binary_star Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *Bob* Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > binary_star Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

> Yeh because MY issue is with people singling out

> the most vulnerable (not dangerous) road users to

> have a go at. I'm not all the sympathetic to the

> most dangerous I'm afraid. That's my agenda - I've

> asked time and time again for everyone else's.

Which basically translates to "I've made up my mind, if you are in a car you are dangerous. Cyclists are vulnerable, so I'm with them, even the ones who do act like cunts".

[Otta]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> No Otta, we can press the powers that be for

> change in all the many ways that I and others on

> this thread have suggested.

Good luck with that.