Dangerous Drivers

[LadyDeliah]

Er, haven't you heard of wind/solar/tidal electricity?

[binary_star]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You know the ony way to have accident free roads is for ALL road users to show consideration to and awareness of all other road users.

I do know that thanks. Next time I need the obvious stating, I'll be sure to let you know.

I absolutely advocate that ALL ROAD users show consideration and awareness. I've said over and over again that I don't believe anyone is exempt. That's not the issue though is it? What is your argument there? Because as far as I can tell no-one is arguing any different. No one (despite Loz's statement to the contrary) is asking cyclists to be exempt from the rules of the road.

My issue is that if you're going to demonise a particular group then pick the most dangerous not the most vulnerable. If you want to demonise cyclists then at least back that shit up with some actual evidence. Otherwise you're just perpetuating a 'cycle of hate' based on a load of anecdotal nonsense for absolutely no other reason than to vent your one frustrations.

It's the same psychological phenomena that's behind racial stereotyping and like LD, I don't think people should be allowed to get away with it. But as LD said above it seems to have become acceptable.

I am genuinely shocked that anyone would claim cyclists are EQUALLY capable of causing a pedestrian death as drivers are (your own words) with no evidence whatsoever. Really??? Forget the weight, have you ever been hit by a car? A push bike? Compared their average speed? Or even looked at them side by side? It's laughable.

I've been hit by both and trust me I don't need stats to tell me which one I'd rather be hit by again...

[TillieTrotter]

How long were you a car driver before you gave the wicked activity up LadyD and did you ever manage to kill/maim or otherwise any cyclists? It's a genuine query.

[binary_star]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How long were you a car driver before you gave the

> wicked activity up LadyD and did you ever manage

> to kill/maim or otherwise any cyclists? It's a

> genuine query.

Fishing for more anecdotal claptrap?

[TillieTrotter]

Not at all BS. LadyD was a driver before becoming an anti-driver so my question is in her experience as the former did she ever mow anyone down. I think it's a valid question.

[LadyDeliah]

I passed my test in 1987 and have done a lot of long haul as well as urban driving over the years. I've also rented cars, vans and once a motor home when I've been abroad.

I've been responsible for two collisions in that time, both when I was relatively inexperienced. One where I lost control of the car on ice and hit a parked car and another when I turned into a road and clipped a motorcyclist who stopped in front of me to let a pedestrian cross the road. The first one pretty much totalled both cars because I was going too fast before I hit the ice and the second one resulted in a cracked panel on the bike when it fell on the floor. Luckily I didn't injure anyone other than myself.

I always cycled too when I owned a car, so I think I am generally more careful when passing vulnerable road users and I always watch for pedestrians stepping out from the pavement without looking. I still use Zipcar/van when I really need something bigger than my bike and I always drive carefully because that's is my responsibility when driving a tonne of metal amongst flesh & blood road users. I include pedestrians as road users by the way.

So TT, your turn.

[binary_star]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not at all BS. LadyD was a driver before becoming

> an anti-driver so my question is in her experience

> as the former did she ever mow anyone down. I

> think it's a valid question.

It is a valid question, but what are you proposing to do with the answer?

[LadyDeliah]

Oh and TT, I'm not anti-driver. I'm interested in getting people to re-think the use, dominance and impact of motorised vehicles on everyone else to make life safer and more enjoyable for everyone.

[LadyDeliah]

So TT, you're not going to let us into your world of crashes, collisions and mayhem during your long time as a driver?

Confession is good for the soul!

[Chillaxed]

So you braked for the cat? A ha, you're a closet cat lover!

woodrot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I ride but also drive so am aware of both sides. I

> did nearly cream a bike a few weeks back when he

> came through on the inside on the other side of

> the road as I was turning right, as a car had

> stopped to let me across. I was @#$%& mortified

> and embarrased.probabaly my fault for crossing,

> but scared the shit out of me.I ahve been on the

> other side of this when it has happened to me when

> riding.

>

> oh yes. lets bring cats into this. I was zooming

> along the old canal path through peckham ( always

> best to zoom along here, as the yoot soemtimes

> target you ) when a cat ran out in front of me.

> being a cat i.e stupid, it stopped right in front

> of me and I went over the bars, temporarily

> dislocating my shoulder ( I am big, so the

> momentum was pretty serious ).luckily my shoulder

> popped back into place as I chased the @#$%&

> through the bushes, but it escaped into someones

> garden.

>

> vermin.

[TillieTrotter]

I am of course LadyD, I was pretending to do some housework for a few minutes.

I've been driving since 1995 and once was hit by a motor bike coming out of a well known accident spot in Bermondsey. There were a big posse of bikers and the runt of the litter (ie the one lagging behind) jumped a red light and ended up cartwheeling across the bonnet of the car. A very traumatic experience although he was fine. I pull out into main roads with much caution because of that experience.

[TillieTrotter]

@BS. What do you want me to do with the answer. I'm just curious to see if LadyD had a bad personal experience as a driver that pushes her to be so evangelical in her views. (I still love you LadyD and am not witch hunting here).

[LadyDeliah]

Losing control of my car on ice at speed was something that made me a much more careful driver. It scared the crap out of me and was an expensive lesson.

It could have actually been worse than it was as I only narrowly missed smacking into the back of a bin truck. I'm pretty sure that would have killed me if I'd hit it.

I just thank God I didn't hit anyone.

I've also been hit by other cars whilst driving, walking and cycling and it is all of these experiences that colour my view of the current situation re motorists and our public spaces.

When I lived in Elephant & Castle me, my kids and my ex-husband have nearly been mown down countless times in the New Kent Road crossing to the shopping centre when cars blew through the red lights. One time me ex had to jump with my daughter in his arms about a meter forward to avoid being smashed into by a dickhead who didn't want to stop.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree LD that there are renewable energy sources, but we are a long way from them being our main supplier of electricity. And especially with solar panels, I can't see why all new builds can't utilise that technology for example. There is definitely a controlling factor at play which is deciding how slowly we convert to renewable energy, namely the oil compnaies who want to see us use every last drop of oil before they are forced to change business. And that frustrates me as much as it probably no doubt frustrates you. But also cost versus productivity of wind farms are challenges too. Personally I am interested in the advent of geothermal energy and think that might be the long term clean solution for our energy needs, but it's going to takes decades to convert all of our energy needs to it.

So in the short term the challenges are different. Engines per se are far cleaner than they've ever been but at present for example, nearly half of all new car sales are diesel engines (diesel gives more miles to the gallon). Road tax on diesel vehicles is almost double that of petrol vehicles but for the driver, the savings made in fuel consumption offset for that.

From a cycling viewpoint, road pollution in heavy traffic is a concern (although drivers also inhale all this stuff through their air con).

[Jeremy]

I don't understand the point of this thread. Surely nobody is going to condone the dangerous behaviour in the highlighted cases. The opening post is clearly designed to divide opinion and polarise the discussion... basically create an argument where really there isn't one.

Can we stop with all this fucking nonsense now, it's getting boring.

[LadyDeliah]

Quick straw poll.

How many drivers:

1. Also cycle

2. Walk or use public transport for a large proportion of their journeys

3. Make most urban journeys by car from their house to car parks, street parking where they rarely walk further than 500 meters from where they park.

Just to get an idea if how much interaction with other toad users that motorists on here get outside of the protective bubble of their vehicle.

[LadyDeliah]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't understand the point of this thread.

> Surely nobody is going to condone the dangerous

> behaviour in the highlighted cases. The opening

> post is clearly designed to divide opinion and

> polarise the discussion... basically create an

> argument where really there isn't one.

>

> Can we stop with all this @#$%& nonsense now, it's

> getting boring.

Sorry if this thread bored you, but I'm happy to not read threads that bore or annoy me and I suggest you do the same.

It is my opinion that raising awareness of the problems detailed at length in this thread is important for all of the detailed reasons I've outlined in this thread.

[LondonMix]

1. I cycle (in fair weather)

2. I walk / use public transport most of the time

3. Hardly ever as I don't own a car

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Quick straw poll.

>

> How many drivers:

>

> 1. Also cycle

> 2. Walk or use public transport for a large

> proportion of their journeys

> 3. Make most urban journeys by car from their

> house to car parks, street parking where they

> rarely walk further than 500 meters from where

> they park.

>

> Just to get an idea if how much interaction with

> other toad users that motorists on here get

> outside of the protective bubble of their vehicle.

[LondonMix]

Not sure how that contradicts anything I said. Unless you don't think cyclists can ever behave in a dangerous way, I'm not sure what your point is besides being obnoxious.

binary_star Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What I think most people mean when they say

> > cyclists are dangerous is that they can

>

> > cause an accident either endangering their own

> lives or

> > cause an accident between two vehicles (one car

> swerving to avoid a reckless cyclists and

> > accidentally hitting another car/ bus/ etc).

>

>

> Aha ok now this makes sense!

> But still no evidence to support that. Quite the

> opposite:

> http://road.cc/content/news/12065-report-dft-casua

> lty-stats-says-cyclists-not-blame-93-cent-cases

>

> Next?

[TillieTrotter]

I'm a lazy cow and usually just walk to my local shops and drive in the main.

[Chillaxed]

I drive very rarely (Zipcar), walk and use public transport for most journeys.

I used to cycle but drivers, pedestrians and other cyclists put me off it (and the little sh*t who nicked my bike from under my nose).

I've seen such bad behavior on all sides that taking sides or pointng the finger seems useless.

[LadyDeliah]

It's not about sides. It's about looking at the most serious problems and finding solutions that reduce harm.

Trying to raise awareness of the situation from the point of view of those most likely to suffer the greatest harm is one way to start the dialogue, but it's also important to understand those causing the harm and their motivations.

Like I said before, I don't think that I should have to feel like I'm travelling through a warzone when I cycle to and from work, so I want people to explore options that benefit the majority if the community, not just the ones in the biggest vehicles.

[LadyDeliah]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm a lazy cow and usually just walk to my local

> shops and drive in the main.

Do you think that this might be why your views on the harm motorists can cause to others might be less extreme than mine? If you had to mix on a daily basis amongst motorists without the protection of your car, do you think that you'd view the dangers of motorised vehicles differently?

[DJKillaQueen]

1. I cycle most of the time.

2. Use public transport occasionally (if weather is too bad to cycle/ or required attire is not cycling attire/ or visiting family or friends oop North)

3. Drive if transporting something, doing a big shop (usually bulk buying a month's supply of cat litter) or working somewhere not more easily accessible on cycle or by public transport.

And cycling on a fine day is my favourite mode of transport. We are well served here with routes through parks and along the old canal route etc. It's only once hitting Elephant and Castle it becomes a bit cycle unfriendly for me. Imo, there's a lot that can be done there (because there is certainly the room to do so) to make for a safer cycle route to the south bank (another favourite cycle route of mine), without impacting on vehicle traffic flows. It just takes some proper planning by the powers that be, and the funding and will to carry out the alterations.

Edited to add; and kerbed bus lanes. I am a big fan of those.......from my experiences of cycling in Paris.

[JohnL]

Well Holborn circus where a cyclist got knocked off by a taxi the other day - and

a big black-spot for cyclists, walkers and motorists looks from the road markings

like it's changing.

Bigger pedestrian areas seems to be what I see there.

What if large parts of central London were pedestrianized - cycle lanes could be

incorporated into the pedestrian areas and cars left alone in main thoroughfares.

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's not about sides. It's about looking at the

> most serious problems and finding solutions that

> reduce harm.

>

> Trying to raise awareness of the situation from

> the point of view of those most likely to suffer

> the greatest harm is one way to start the

> dialogue, but it's also important to understand

> those causing the harm and their motivations.

>

> Like I said before, I don't think that I should

> have to feel like I'm travelling through a warzone

> when I cycle to and from work, so I want people to

> explore options that benefit the majority if the

> community, not just the ones in the biggest

> vehicles.