Townley Road Bus Gate Times

[sandyman]

Can anyone shed any light on this? I thought the afternoon restrictions were from 3pm - 4.30pm - I received a fine on Boxing Day Bank Holiday Monday for driving through at 4.22pm. I paid as although I felt it was pretty unreasonable I was bang to rights.

I just walked down Townley Road and the first sign says restrictions are 3pm - 4pm while the one further down (not very clear in pic) says 3pm- 4.30pm.

I don't know if they've always been like this or the times are changing and the people changing them have lost interest mid-job, but I would imagine if you receive a ticket for driving through at the same time as me you've got a pretty strong case have having the fine overturned due to inconsistent signage.

[Kathleen Olander]

Yes, you are right, the signs are different at each end of road.

Last Thursday I counted 20 plus cars drive through in the time it took me to walk it. The council must be making a fortune.

[sandyman]

I've actually tried to appeal to get a refund but Southwark's automated website won't let me - it says that once you've paid you've admitted liability and the case is closed. This seems harsh for someone who may not live in the area and is unable to check the signs/location etc (I know you could use google maps but they are not always up to date).

 

Yes, you are right, the signs are different at each end of road.

Last Thursday I counted 20 plus cars drive through in the time it took me to walk it. The council must be making a fortune.

[ianr]

One thing that possibly goes against you, unfortunately, is that the first sign, as in your photo, isn't actually the 'regulatory' sign that gives the order, but what seems to be called an 'informatory' sign, of which Advance Direction Signs are one type. This I've got from the Traffic Signs Manual, which is the 'user' guide to the larger Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions which contains all the formal prescriptions.

Before February 2022, incidentally, I see that the order's hours of application were 8-10am and 3-5pm rather than the current 8-9am and 3-4.30pm. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/dulwich-review

Edited March 17, 2023 by ianr

[Sue]

One thing that goes against you, probably and unfortunately, is that the first sign, as in your photo, isn't actually the 'regulatory' sign that gives the order, but what seems to be called an 'informatory' sign, of which Advance Direction Signs are one type. This I've got from the Traffic Signs Manual, which is the 'user' guide to the larger Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions which contains all the formal prescriptions.

Before February 2022, incidentally, I see that the order's hours of application were 8-10am and 3-5pm rather than the current 8-9am and 3-4.30pm. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/dulwich-review

 

Anybody seeing that would quite reasonably take it as correct!

[sandyman]

Yes, I agree with Sue, you may well be right that it's a different kind of sign but any reasonable court in the land would surely accept that if you passed that first sign at 4.22pm and saw on it that the restrictions were from 3pm - 4pm you wouldn't then be expected to check the next sign to see if the times were different. And if you did spot that the times were different you could surely argue that you thought the first 4pm sign you saw was correct and the second 4.30pm sign you saw was incorrect...

Edited to add - thanks for Southwark link, i knew the times had been reduced once so actually seeing the 4pm sign I thought maybe they'd reduced the times again but have failed to change both signs. Can't see anything on website about further changes though.

 

One thing that goes against you, probably and unfortunately, is that the first sign, as in your photo, isn't actually the 'regulatory' sign that gives the order, but what seems to be called an 'informatory' sign, of which Advance Direction Signs are one type. This I've got from the Traffic Signs Manual, which is the 'user' guide to the larger Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions which contains all the formal prescriptions.

Before February 2022, incidentally, I see that the order's hours of application were 8-10am and 3-5pm rather than the current 8-9am and 3-4.30pm. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/dulwich-review

 

Anybody seeing that would quite reasonably take it as correct!

One thing that goes against you, probably and unfortunately, is that the first sign, as in your photo, isn't actually the 'regulatory' sign that gives the order, but what seems to be called an 'informatory' sign, of which Advance Direction Signs are one type. This I've got from the Traffic Signs Manual, which is the 'user' guide to the larger Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions which contains all the formal prescriptions.

Before February 2022, incidentally, I see that the order's hours of application were 8-10am and 3-5pm rather than the current 8-9am and 3-4.30pm. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/dulwich-review

 

Anybody seeing that would quite reasonably take it as correct!

[ianr]

> Anybody seeing that would quite reasonably take it as correct!!

I agree. Some might then be inclined to pay less attention to the legend on the actual regulatory sign. Our highways department should be told about it so that they can correct it. I'll be doing so.

I'm not sure that a high court could or would allow the discrepancy to negate the unambiguousness of the sign at the start of the bus gate, but at the tribunal which these appeals go to I've seen enough variance to think judgments there might go either way, in the case of an appellant who says they were misled by the falsely informatory sign.

[Rockets]

So, I can't see from the photo, but the first sign says 4pm and the second sign says 4.30pm - is that correct?

Wow, if that is the case then surely there is an ambulance-chasing lawyer who would want to take the council on over this and represent anyone who got a fine between the hours of 4pm and 4.30pm? I wonder how many people have fallen foul of this - yet another embarrassing moment for the council - someone get some good pictures before it is too late and send them to Southwark News - they'll love it!

[Sue]

I've actually tried to appeal to get a refund but Southwark's automated website won't let me - it says that once you've paid you've admitted liability and the case is closed.

 

Taking into account all the above, in your position I would approach the relevant council department (not via the automated website!) and if you get no joy from them (or maybe at the same time) approach either your own councillor or the councillor representing the area Townley Road is in (if they are different).

I would say you had a strong case, but what would I know. Worth trying, anyway!

[sandyman]

At great personal expense I revisited the scene today and took a picture of the second sign further down the road to confirm it says 4.30pm rather than 4pm on the first sign. See first post and attached picture below. I also made a short film to show them together but am unable to attach - available on request!

Now, does anyone know who I should send them to at Southwark News? And does anyone know a friendly ambulance-chasing lawyer?

 

So, I can't see from the photo, but the first sign says 4pm and the second sign says 4.30pm - is that correct?

Wow, if that is the case then surely there is an ambulance-chasing lawyer who would want to take the council on over this and represent anyone who got a fine between the hours of 4pm and 4.30pm? I wonder how many people have fallen foul of this - yet another embarrassing moment for the council - someone get some good pictures before it is too late and send them to Southwark News - they'll love it!

[CPR Dave]

That is absolutley scandalous.

[ianr]

Can anyone say when the new sign was put up?

Sandyman, did you see it on Boxing Day?

[malumbu]

If this is an error has anyone actually complained to the Council? You can do it on line. Rather than talk about ambulance chasing lawyers (a curse on society in any case) perhaps a local community minded citizen could take it up - one for you Rocks? https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/complaints-comments-and-compliments/making-a-complaint

I once got obsessed with a parking ticket issued by Croydon, took it to appeal, spent many hours, but to no avail (although the appeals lot were reasonable). I'm more philosophical nowadays. My most amusing transgression was getting caught in the congestion charge many years ago on a Christmas Eve - duh, it's not a public holiday......

[sandyman]

I don't think I saw it on Boxing Day, it's that period of the year when you lose track of the days and I think as we were going out for a late family lunch in my head i thought it was a Sunday and the times didn't apply. I imagine i wasn't the only one.

I presume Southwark Council would have a record of when it was changed from 4.30pm to 4pm. But I've got no doubts that there has been a discrepancy between the two signs for at least a fortnight and I would presume that if people are being fined for driving through the bus gate between 4pm and 4.30pm while they've been like that they'd have a pretty persuasive case for having the fine cancelled. (it's possible they are currently not fining people after 4pm I suppose).

 

Can anyone say when the new sign was put up?

Sandyman, did you see it on Boxing Day?

Can anyone say when the new sign was put up?

Sandyman, did you see it on Boxing Day?

[sandyman]

Having paid the fine i'm not going to get obsessed by it. i think I'll probably just fire off an email to southwark and maybe cc Helen Hayes, and Southwark News (as someone suggested earlier) with the pictures attached. I'll leave it at that and cross my fingers. I'll use your link to complain too. Thanks.

 

If this is an error has anyone actually complained to the Council? You can do it on line. Rather than talk about ambulance chasing lawyers (a curse on society in any case) perhaps a local community minded citizen could take it up - one for you Rocks? https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/complaints-comments-and-compliments/making-a-complaint

I once got obsessed with a parking ticket issued by Croydon, took it to appeal, spent many hours, but to no avail (although the appeals lot were reasonable). I'm more philosophical nowadays. My most amusing transgression was getting caught in the congestion charge many years ago on a Christmas Eve - duh, it's not a public holiday......

[ianr]

sandyman wrote:

> I presume Southwark Council would have a record of when it was changed from 4.30pm to 4pm.

Nothing has been changed. Someone, either the council or the signmakers, made a mistake on this one sign. Even the corresponding advisory sign on the Calton Avenue approach has the 4.30pm correctly. Nothing could have been changed without a lot of formal kerfuffle and the making of a new TMO, most probably accompanied by scores of posts in this place. The "DS Timed bus cycle taxi only routes" one of 21 Oct 2021, https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/66569/DS-Timed-bus-cycle-taxi-only-routes-notice-dated-21-Oct-2021-.pdf, is still on the list of current TMOs at https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/traffic-orders-licensing-strategies-and-regulation/traffic-management-orders?chapter=5.

> I'll leave it at that and cross my fingers. I'll use your link to complain too.

The finger crossing, and possibly the complaining, suggests you're still partly attached to the hope that there was a formal change to 4pm. I think you'd be better off forgetting it.

I can though see one virtue in your using the complaints process. I didn't use it myself because I had no personal complaint to make. But I did write to the highways department on Saturday and Sunday, by online form and email, to let them know of the problem and of the interest here. The template response to the email said "our standard response time is 10 working days," I feel bad about the fact that Southwark seems to have erred, at least in not checking the sign content before installing it. But what I'll really be judging them by is the speed and efficiency with which they deal with the (probably small) problem now. Possibly at least one post sent into the Complaints channel might make it more likely that it's looked at sooner rather than later. And if you have, on your PCN, the contact address of another department dealing with the enforcement, I think it would be great if you contacted them, to ensure that they're aware of the problem.

[sandyman]

sorry, the sign has definitely been changed from 4.30pm to 4pm at some point in the recent past. I've just gone on street view and screengrabbed this image where the same sign that currently says 4pm clearly says 4.30pm.

 

sandyman wrote:

> I presume Southwark Council would have a record of when it was changed from 4.30pm to 4pm.

Nothing has been changed. Someone, either the council or the signmakers, made a mistake on this one sign. Even the corresponding advisory sign on the Calton Avenue approach has the 4.30pm correctly. Nothing could have been changed without a lot of formal kerfuffle and the making of a new TMO, most probably accompanied by scores of posts in this place. The "DS Timed bus cycle taxi only routes" one of 21 Oct 2021, https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/66569/DS-Timed-bus-cycle-taxi-only-routes-notice-dated-21-Oct-2021-.pdf, is still on the list of current TMOs at https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/traffic-orders-licensing-strategies-and-regulation/traffic-management-orders?chapter=5.

> I'll leave it at that and cross my fingers. I'll use your link to complain too.

The finger crossing, and possibly the complaining, suggests you're still partly attached to the hope that there was a formal change to 4pm. I think you'd be better off forgetting it.

I can though see one virtue in your using the complaints process. I didn't use it myself because I had no personal complaint to make. But I did write to the highways department on Saturday and Sunday, by online form and email, to let them know of the problem and of the interest here. The template response to the email said "our standard response time is 10 working days," I feel bad about the fact that Southwark seems to have erred, at least in not checking the sign content before installing it. But what I'll really be judging them by is the speed and efficiency with which they deal with the (probably small) problem now. Possibly at least one post sent into the Complaints channel might make it more likely that it's looked at sooner rather than later. And if you have, on your PCN, the contact address of another department dealing with the enforcement, I think it would be great if you contacted them, to ensure that they're aware of the problem.

[ianr]

sorry, the sign has definitely been changed from 4.30pm to 4pm at some point in the recent past. I've just gone on street view and screengrabbed this image where the same sign that currently says 4pm clearly says 4.30pm.

 

I've a recollection of some time ago seeing one bus gate info. sign on that stretch lying damaged on the pavement. I'm not sure at all that it was one of this type, but vandals can be persistent. Whatever, damage by some means is the only reason I can think of why the one in your screenshot needed to be replaced.

The current, erroneous one has the above label on the back, showing that it was apparently made 'in-house' in May 2022, which gives us an earliest possible date of replacement. I think I've seen other newish street signs around SE22 with similar labelling, which could possibly provide some evidence of the range of intervals between construction and installation. The corresponding advisory sign on Calton Avenue seems, from so far just an indistinct photo, to have only what looks a like a different manufacturer's specification table - I can just make out the word 'retro-reflective'. But anyway, as you say, Southwark should be able to provide full details.

My Saturday webform input got a personal email reply on Monday morning from Environment Department saying:

"I have forwarded your enquiry to the Street Furniture team and the site will be inspected within the next 5 working days. Any problems found will be dealt with as soon as possible."

[Glemham]

Complain to the local councillors for Dulwich Village ward:

[email protected]

[email protected]

Attach images of the differing signs. The time is definitely 3 to 4.30pm.

[sandyman]

Thanks, I did that yesterday and got a pretty prompt reply saying the sign with the incorrect time went up after my PCN was issued. I've asked for a more specific date.

 

Complain to the local councillors for Dulwich Village ward:

[email protected]

[email protected]

Attach images of the differing signs. The time is definitely 3 to 4.30pm.

[ianr]

Was the prompt informative reply in response to your own direct contact, or to intervention by a councillor? And if the former, to whom? Maybe the complaints page at https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/complaints-comments-and-compliments/making-a-complaint, or something else? It would be useful to know.

[ianr]

For the record, it's now back to 4.30. The label on the back still says May 2022, so I assume it's the same one given a retouch. Didn't have my phone with me, but to plain sight I couldn't tell it had been changed.

[sandyman]

Yes, if you look closely a label that says "4.30pm" has been stuck over where it said "4pm" last week.

In answer to your previous question I got a quick reply from Richard Leeming via his email address.

 

For the record, it's now back to 4.30. The label on the back still says May 2022, so I assume it's the same one given a retouch. Didn't have my phone with me, but to plain sight I couldn't tell it had been changed.

[ianr]

Thanks. I've just had a look at my own photo of the 4:00 pm one, just to check that that wasn't a label too.

[ETA 13/5/24 I've had a look for the OL determination in Paul Brown's case mentioned in the following post.

No trace of it, so presume he was successful in his representations to Southwark.]

Edited May 14 by ianr

[Paul Brown]

Good Morning you good people. New here as I live in Durham but just wanted to let you know that I was caught in your favourite Bus Gate back in November and yesterday I had my appeal upheld and my case is now quashed. 
 

I had written to my local MP to fight my case but before she could get involved I had got my result. Since then she has emailed me asking to still go ahead and get some kind of clarification off the CEO on firstly why “ there was an error on my case and as a gesture of good will “ etc 

Secondly some clear clarification on the whole issue 

 

if / when I get some findings I’ll report back ? Hopefully this might help in reversing some charges for you guys 

 

best wishes