anyone had more than 3m side return extension??

[rafsta]

Hello everyone,

We live in a terraced house in east dulwich and would like to do a kitchen side return extension, but our architect has told us that it is quite unlikely that we would be allowed to extend for more than 3m. Our kitchen is roughly 6m long and so it would be a 6m side return extension.

Has anyone applied for planning like this and what was the outcome? Are there any ways around it?

Looking forward to hear from your experience

Thank you :)

[LondonMix]

Look on Southwark's planning website. http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/485/planning_applications/554/search_for_planning_applications/1

You'll be able to see all applications (including if they were approved or rejected) made on any street including drawings so you can get an idea of size. If someone on your street has done this successfully the precedent means you should have a reasonable chance.

Keep in mind that this month the extended permitted development rules may come into force for 3 years- instead of 3m, terraces will be allowed to extend to 6m (8m for semi-detached properties) unless Southwark has asked for an exemption. Your neighbours will be given the right to object but you shouldn't need full planning permission. If your architect didn't mention this to you, I'd suggest you speak to someone else..

[rafsta]

thanks for this, we will have a look. Fingers crossed the rules may change!

[healey]

Side return extensions on these houses are very common and as long as you have a party wall agreement and only extend to the original depth of your house there should be few problems with planning or neighbours.

If you are hoping to extend beyond the original depth of your house then prepare for a possible fight. As LondonMix said, planning laws are being slightly relaxed, but the new rules still allow neighbours to object.

If your extension hems in someone's garden they almost certainly will object. I'm not a fan of the new planning rules as they will undoubtedly cause fights.

[igline1]

Have a look at http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/extensions/

[first mate]

The problem is terrace houses and light. The properties are so close together that even merely extending to the side and not beyond the depth of the house, is going to affect your neighbour and the light that they get in their kitchen as well as their living room. Similarly, extending beyond the depth of your house is bound to impact on the light your neighbour gets in the garden closest to their house- often where people have a patio. So your gain is probably going to mean your neighbour's loss.

[LondonMix]

That's not always the case, a lot depends on the orientation of the houses. Light studies can be done and not all extensions have a negative impact on light. However, when making your plans, its worth thinking about your neighbours and talk about it with them ahead of time.

[first mate]

I agree, not all extensions will involve a loss of light to the neighbour, but many will, epsecially if there is also a loft conversion as well.

I know of at least two different cases where people have been very distressed at their neighbours complete lack of consideration for the impact their extension would have on them. One elderly couple had their kitchen plunged into permament gloom by one of these. There is a big difference between a 6ft fence and then a sense of some space and light above and a massive brick wall of possibly double the height- which is what they ended up having to look at. Who in their right mind would want that?!

[LondonMix]

Side return extensions that don't go beyond the original depth of the house shouldn't cause a problem as your neighbours homes should end at the same point. Large rear and wrap around extensions (side + rear both being extended beyond the original footprint) are more problematic and planners are loath to grant permission for wrap around extensions for the reasons you've highlighted these days without light studies being done etc.

[alice]

neighbours put in for a 2story wrap round extension plus the loft.

what are his chances?

[igline1]

The vast majority of people assume they will lose sunlight or daylight as a result if a neighbouring development but in realisty they either don't or don't lose enough for it to be harmful. Britain is obsessed with nimbyism!

[rafsta]

Thanks everyone for comments!!

Anyone here has done a side return extension of more than 3m?

If yes how did you get on??

Thanks a lot

[Anna27]

We had our side return extension approved by southwark about a year and a half ago, rather than doing a full wrap around we stepped the side return section of the kitchen back by about 1.5m, aesthetically I felt it worked better for us as our garden is quite small, we put in a floor to ceiling glass panel looking into the garden as well as bi-folding doors, The roof of our extension is also glass.

No loss of light for the neighbours! We actually put a party walk agreement in place with our then neighbour and built off the garden party wall, foundations were good enough.

The only thing we had a slight issue with was the height, be realistic we had to lower ours in the end by 10cm

Because of this we had to go for a glass roof which slopes from the party wall to the side of our house. Looks great and the space works well for our family. Also be aware that the height you have internally will be determined by factors like if your street is on a slope, our internal ceiling height in the rest of the kitchen is very high as originally we stepped down into or kitchen.

I found southwark to be fair and very helpful, they went over the 8week period as our case worker had a bike accident , because of this our architect was allowed to submit new drawings with the slight height change rather than resubmit and wait another 8weeks! it really doesn't impact on our neighbours infact I think they might be doing a similar extension!

I think the length of our kitchen is over 6m these extensions are really common now, as mentioned before it would probably be more of an issue for planning if you were extending the length into the garden we stayed with the original footprint and just went to the side.

Oh and the gutter on the party wall was built to accommodate the neighbours if they ever did decide to extend, these are costs you will have to incur.

Good luck!

[Anna27]

Also a friend on a different street had hers approved too slightly different but most side returns are over 3m in length. Best speaking to the planning team.

[first mate]

igline1,

Truer to say that most people are obsessed with light. Do you hear anyone who has had any sort of extensive building work talking about it in terms other than as a light and airy space? Generally people are after two things, more space and more light.

It is all very well those who have had this work done to say that it has had no negative impact on their neighbours (well they would see it that way wouldn't they ) I do know of people that have had their quality of living seriously diminished by these extensions -often elderly as it happens.

Anna27,

Obviously I don't know the distance between your home and your neighbours along the side return, but some terraces are quite close together there and obviously any new structure that is very much closer as well as higher will take light both from the kitchen and from the rear window of the neighbouring sitting room. The view from the bedroom that overlooks the side return will be pretty dismal too. It is also horribly oppressive as there is less of a sense of space and a feeling of being closed in. In this sense the extension can be a massive imposition on your neighbour.

I visited a friend's house where this had been done, together with a loft conversion, and the effect on them was quite appalling. The extension had also been built in ugly red brick, which was totally out of keeping with a victorian terrace- as was the horrendous loft conversion. Natch,the neighbours who had built the eyesore of a wall as part of their grand design it did not have to look at it day in day out.

You say that you think your neighbours are doing the same thing. It occurs to me that such would be the loss of light that the only way of getting it back is to extend in a similar way- of course there will be those who cannot afford to. It's kind of survival of the fittest I guess.

[edhistory]

Why do people choose to move into an area and then destroy its architectural heritage?

John K

[rafsta]

We are not living in the 19th century anymore Edhistory and the houses need to adapt. We have kept all the original features in the house and restored the facade/original windows etc..

A kitchen extension is improving the architectural heritage not destroying it

[rafsta]

Thank you so much Anna27. This is very helpful :)

[edhistory]

rafsta Wrote:

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> We are not living in the 19th century anymore

I had not noticed this.

> A kitchen extension is improving the architectural

> heritage not destroying it

?

John K

[tekton23]

Hi,

The 3m rule is normally taken from the rear facade of the property towards the garden. It is the limit for permitted development, I.e. development to your property for which you do not need a full planning application.

Happy to explain further, or perhaps you have photos?

T23

[first mate]

I have seen some horrendous, stalinist loft conversions, less so side extensions. I'm sure that most people go for the best they can afford. I also do understand that people want more space and more light, but please do honestly consider the impact on your neighbour.

In one of the instances I am aware of, young professionals new to a terrace house completely bulldozed the elderly couple living next door- they were going to have what they wanted and the resaonable concerns of their neighbours were simply ignored. It caused the older folk a lot of stress and heartache. Part of me felt that if the youngsters wanted and needed a significantly larger house why hadn't they bought one in the first place?

In my view, it would be the height of selfishness to go ahead with building work in the full knowledge that the quality of life you gain by so doing reduces that of your neighbour. Terraces are so close that realistically we should always consider the impact we have on those next to us.

[Penguin68]

Rules on permitted development are based also around cubic metre extension - so you have to work out the volume and not just the external (square) dimensions. A friend going for an extension large enough to come under planning laws (not just permitted development) tried to get a semi-detached neighbour to submit a joint extension submission (and offered to pay for it) which would have given the neighbour planning permission to extend (without any obligation to) which would have increased their house value had they chosen to sell. Didn't work in this case, neighbour didn't want to play and moaned about light - although mostly they are lit fom the other side when the sun is round the back - but it is known to work - was suggested by their architect.

[giggirl]

edhistory Wrote:

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> Why do people choose to move into an area and then

> destroy its architectural heritage?

>

> John K

Because a lot of houses in this area didn't have inside toilets when they were built. That doesn't fly today. It's about reconfiguring existing space for modern living.

[Penguin68]

I should have added that the rules for permitted development work out the volume increase from the original plan - so any extension work done previously counts towards the total volume increase, unless it can be shown that the earlier work dated from before the War. However loft space (within the original footprint) isn't included - so loft extensions are for the volumes which don't fall within the original roof-space.

[edhistory]

giggirl Wrote:

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> Because a lot of houses in this area didn't have

> inside toilets when they were built.

Interesting. Which properties can you identify? Does it apply in this case?

> It's about reconfiguring existing

> space for modern living.

Destruction to satisfy a personal preference.

John K