Derelict Grove Tavern

[alice]

Agree with you best use would be social housing with maybe a community centre and supermarket.

Dulwich Estates won’t be helpful. Does compulsory purchase still exist.

[Sue]

I live in the flats next to the skateboard park. I have to say since it's arrival graffiti and noise has increased exponentially.

The sooner they redevelop the site into something meaningful like a community centre or for flats the better.

 

Other people who live in the flats have welcomed the skateboard park and community garden for the opportunities it is giving to (mostly young) members of the local community.

Are you saying it (and the recent excellent play put on there, supported by the Arts Council) is not "meaningful"? How do you define "meaningful" in this context?

Are you saying there was no noise when it was a pub car park and garden?

Are you saying there is no noise from the traffic on the South Circular?

I pass the skateboard park frequently, and quite often there is nobody there at all.

I see you only have two posts on this forum, so it wouldn't seem that you are greatly involved with the local community yourself 🙄

Also, graffiti is a recognised art form.

[Nigello]

Graffiti is not always art; maybe you’re thinking it’s a synonym for street art. Ugly, aggressive tagging doesn’t fit that bill. And not partaking in the EDF doesn’t necessarily mean a person cannot be community minded.

[Sue]

Graffiti is not always art; maybe you’re thinking it’s a synonym for street art. Ugly, aggressive tagging doesn’t fit that bill. And not partaking in the EDF doesn’t necessarily mean a person cannot be community minded.

 

The graffiti in the skate park has been done by the skateboarders themselves, to the best of my knowledge.

[hammerman]

Oh dear Sue, just because you have thousands of posts on the forum it doesn't mean somebody who has just two recent posts cannot have a view on the subject! And they also live just a stone's throw from the Grove Tavern so surely have to endure what is happening on the site!

I remember when this was the Harvester's and had many a lovely meal out with friends and family inside and outside in the gardens. Then it suddenly shut because of a fire in the premises and was boarded up for years with no input.

How very sad.

[DulwichFox]

I remember before it was a Harvester, when it was a Real Pub.

Becoming a Harvester was it's downfall.

The Food at the Harvester was Dreadful.

The service was Dreadful.

One thing that was NOT actually advertised was that if you had a BAD meal

you did not have to pay.

Dulwich Fox

[Pugwash]

The Grove Tavern site is ideal for a Travel Lodge/Premier Inn - an ideal raised several years ago. I do not think social or an other housing would be suitable due to the traffic on 2 sides of the building. A small B & B as above could work. Noticed that there is a travel lodge above Ancaster Garage in Penge and also in Lewisham High Street. (or was it a Premier Inn?)

[Sue]

Oh dear Sue, just because you have thousands of posts on the forum it doesn't mean somebody who has just two recent posts cannot have a view on the subject! And they also live just a stone's throw from the Grove Tavern so surely have to endure what is happening on the site!

I remember when this was the Harvester's and had many a lovely meal out with friends and family inside and outside in the gardens. Then it suddenly shut because of a fire in the premises and was boarded up for years with no input.

How very sad.

 

Wondering if you have read the rest of the thread?

"Endure" ???

[hammerman]

Yes I've read everything.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Turn it into a skate park and music venue.

 

^ This

[Earl Aelfheah]

Why does Stonegate carry on paying rent on a lease without operating a business? Is it a very long lease and they're gambling they'll be able to get change of use and then sell out?

 

I am speculating, but I imagine they're allowing it to fall into such a state of disrepair that they can get permission to knock it down, get change of use and build something more profitable?

[redpost]

You can bet that the Dulwich estate would not tolerate such dilapidation of a building within the Village, but it's next to a council estate ... so that's OK.

[ruffers]

As a very long term supporter can I just gently point out that one of the ways the Grove DIY has been able to engage positively wth their neighbours is by engaging, reaching out and looking to listen. Not everyone may be aware of how they leafletted all the neighbours before the recent Jam (which was undeniably noisy) and invited anyone effected to say hello. It might be that some people didn't see that, or have only recently discovered this forum. For me their ie the new forum members views are just as valid, and should be listened to in order to find the best way forward.

Just my bit, thanks

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

I'm a fan of the skate park, but I don't live next to it, and if someone who does mentions that it can be noisy - why disbelieve them or suggest they're acting in bad faith? Obviously something is going to be noisier than nothing which is what there was immediately before the skatepark. I assume a skate park would be quieter than a pub on the South Circular...but the noise from a skate park might be harsher and more clattery 🤷‍♂️

[Indy159]

The Grove, imo , has been a positive addition. I live a few streets away and see how they sweep and try to keep it tidy. The truth is that there’s little to nothing for youths, but loads for young kids and adults to do. Take away the grove and you’ll have a lot of idle hands getting up to mischief elsewhere. With the darker evenings and wet weather the grove will be used less over the next while. Be interesting to see if there’s a spike in mischief during this period. If there is, then there’s a possible argument for a weather proof facility ie a roof over or covered area for the skaters.

[alice]

Ridiculous suggestion that somehow skatepark prevents crime

[malumbu]

Anything that gives youth active things to do can help reduce crime. Perhaps go over there and chat to them to challenge your views.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

The Devil makes work for idle hands.

[ruffers]

Ridiculous suggestion that somehow skatepark prevents crime

 

What a strange thing to say.

[alice]

How is that strange? Has crime decreased in the area? Are they running sessions for ‘at risk ‘ youngsters? I would say the skate parks existence is totally unrelated to crime in the area. But if anyone’s got evidence otherwise I shall bow.

[Indy159]

No stats for the grove but after a year the wardens reported the following for Crystal Palace skatepark:

Petty crime down

Graffiti down in local area except in skatepark

Dog walkers felt safer

.

[alice]

Wardens anecdotes are interesting. But for straight info check the police crime map. It’s fiddly to use but gives a clear result. But like I said earlier unconnected to skating site.

[Indy159]

Not wishing to get into some debate about police stats. The long and short of this is that young members of our local community worked together to create something for all to use if they wish to do so. The activity may not be to everyone’s taste but I’m sure if they’d cleared the area for football or table tennis no one would be critical. Imo table tennis noise would be more annoying than skater noises but I would accept this as it is a pass time people would enjoy without being a nuisance to others outside of that arena. To back track a little I have however looked at the police stats for the cp skatepark area and it appears to have been more positive in terms of stats since the skatepark opened although my interpretation of them may be wrong.

[ruffers]

For anyone interested in the background to the Grove and would like to find out more they are holding an evening event over the road at the cricket club with speakers and a panel - all welcome, skaters or not or even just curious, synopsis at ticket link below -

Thu 17th November 2022 (door 6pm, event 7pm~)

Venue: Pavilion - Streatham & Marlborough Cricket Club (SE21 7EX)

=== Synopsis =========

The evening is a show-and-tell opportunity by the Grove community for the rest of Dulwich residents and beyond. The short documentary will guide the audience through the birth and growth of The Grove DIY skatepark. The camera captures an intimate portrait of The Grove community from its tentative early days to which grew organically in and around the site. "Have fun" is the heart of skater culture and there's nothing else to gain from it, and a DIY skatepark is the epitome of such skater ethos - be it in a slightly extreme form. Skaters know too well that a physical skateboard is just a toy, nevertheless they skate like their lives depend on it. It's a way of life, self-expression, obsession, escape and personal quest which are punctuated by landing that trick they have been doggedly trying to a point of exhaustion, and the sheer joy and triumph over their own limit. The evening will give you a glimpse of what skater culture is and what a DIY skate spot can positively impact the community, regardless of whether they are skaters inside or onlookers outside the skatepark - everyone can feel the inexplicably uplifting energy skaters emit when they skate. Such untamed energy has ignited a few spin-off projects along the way, and now these are well-established projects in their own right.

There will be a panel discussion at the end to talk about DIY skate spot in a context of skater culture and its evolution with the Grove as the primary example, expanding to skatability in urban environment and benefit of skater's presence in otherwise uninviting and intimidating environment.

=============

Ticket (free but, please book):

https://forms.gle/4Xxe2n1dyv7P8qex7

[alice]

the skate park is of course cute enough for such videos, such organic growth is just what happens - empty spaces taken up by artists of all kinds. but now, their job is done, almost time to wander off and find another derelict area and make it grow - that is the nature of the process,

But that enormous site needs to be for social housing. 10,000s still on the waiting list, council paying fortunes out on rancid out-of-door ugh short term accommodation.

Will it happen? The mindset of our current Suthwark council still astonishes.