Dog attacked my child (St Aiden's Road) (Lounged)

[ClareC]

My last post seems to have suffered a cyber delay :'(

[Brendan]

I love staffies I have known many and they are great dogs. What is happening here though is that they are becoming the victim in a case of people not accepting the responsibilities that come hand in hand with their freedoms. And even I am starting to see how they may have to become a banned breed because of people?s inability to be decent to their fellow man. (incidentally I think 4x4s should be banned in all cities even though I drive one when I?m in the bush in SA)

Q: Why do so many people in this city get staffies when there are so many other breeds that make equally good pets and are more suitable?

A: I think for the most part is because they are extremely loyal and easily trained and thier aggresive streak is easy to tap into. They also look hard. I know there are plenty of responsible owners but for the most part what I have said is unfortunately true.

In my book willingly wanting something for its aggressive nature is as good as going out and committing a violent crime. The intent to infringe on someone else?s safety is there.

The sad thing is that the staffie as a breed is the victim here because people are so fucking pathetic and self-centered that they feel that aggression is somehow something other than weakness.

[KalamityKel]

James why are you making it a "class" issue? Neither DC or Chav have mentioned anything of the sort yet you continuously bring up this rubbish AND keep harping on about "chavs"!!!

You mention "patronising"? Yes indeed!

[david_carnell]

I didn't call you racist - I merely pointed out that to discriminate on grounds of appearance is somewhat of an equivalent.

Without sounding incredibly twattish, I guess the tracksuit other accoutrements that you define as "chavvy" are a lifestyle choice. Whether you think it's stylish or makes you look like an oik is entirely irrelevent. It has nothing to do with you how anyone else looks.

You find young, tracksuited men threatening? Perhaps your own prejudices are colouring your argument - have you ever engaged them in conversation, bothered to say hello or know any personally?

Am I stereotyping you? I doubt it James, I don't know you - do you read the Daily Mail? It's an easy trap to fall into isn't it - making broad sweeping statements about groups of people you know nothing about.

Chav is only a negative word because people like you deem to make it so.

[ClareC]

Cassius Wrote:

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> Just as a debating point - is there really a need

> for anyone to own a dog in London?

I think this all comes down to freedom and choice which we are all lucky enough to enjoy.

Where the problems arise is inconsiderate behaviour whether that is from the unnecesary pollution of the "Chelea tractor" or the theatening "chav" dog. There is good and bad in every group, the argument shouldnt be about what it is or is not right to own but on the consideration that should be given to others.

[ClareC]

grrrrrrrrr why do my posts keep arriving late (6)

[James]

Oh right. Yes, let's all pretend that the word chav means something else. KK you have an axe to grind because you and David were spouting misinformed rubbish about schools on another thread and I made you look stupid.

Now you are both playing a silly, childish game involving labelling everyone a racist/Daily Mail reader/whatever because I have made some judgments based on my experience and you don't agree.

You can carry on pretending that the people who own these dogs aren't chavs until the cows come home if it makes your bleeding hearts feel better. You'll still be wrong and deluded though.

By the way, um, no I don't find "young tracksuited men threatening." But if one was coming at we with a Staffie I probably would.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I didn't call you racist - I merely pointed out that to discriminate on grounds of appearance is somewhat of an equivalent.

People make assumptions about you by the way you dress/appear. Some can be positive, some negative. Deal with it.

[KalamityKel]

Thank you for answering my question James (tu)

[grabot]

Gosh, this is getting very confusing.

So, fearing a breed of dog is analogous to racism? The dog fearer is in that case a terrible person. Shame on you all. To parallel this absurd false syllogism and extend my earlier metaphor I have a question: I am not afraid of moggy cats, but I am afraid of tigers. Am I bad person?

I love the way that people automatically work their way through Schopenhauer's "38 ways to win an argument" without necessarily being aware of it. Looks like this debate is over as we have hit number 38.

[david_carnell]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

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> People make assumptions about you by the way you

> dress/appear. Some can be positive, some negative.

> Deal with it.

How silly of me to think that people might be enlightened enough to see past an appearance.

Goodness if only those young black men would stop wearing such baggy "pants" and baseball caps pulled down over their eyes they wouldn't look so shifty and get pulled over by the police.

And those nasty Muslim men would kindly shave off their beards and abandon their religious garb for something from the Boden catalogue everything would be just super.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I am not afraid of moggy cats, but I am afraid of tigers. Am I bad person?

No, but you obviously have issues with gay men.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

James I disagree.

I may not be immediately recognisable as a certain class or group of people (although maybe i'm kidding myself here) but as soon as I open my mouth many people spot the 'chavvy' phrases such as 'innit' etc and judge me as being less able or less intelligent because of my 'chavvy' phrases and mannerisms.

The way I talk is a result of the people I have had around me for most of my life. It is obvious straight away that I am not middle-class. This is unconscious and very difficult to hide. So how is that a life-style choice?

I am a result of my genetics plus my environment.

I can't change the way I talk or react to situations anymore than someone who is black or asian can change their ethnicity, and I shouldn't have to.

I think the fact that I am expected to change what I would wear or what kind of dog I should own is down to the fact that the middle-class way became the dominant way in Blair's Britain with every political party/newspaper/TV station promoting their ideals/styles/decking etc as the only way and marginalising those who don't want or can't change their oik-ish way of thinking.

In the past Gay men were told to stop winging and just act straight, black people were told to act more white and assimilate. The same is being said to the working class, or what is left of them and it makes me sad that people who are enlightened in other areas of prejudice refuse to see what is happening to their own indigenous oppressed.

[david_carnell]

grabot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I love the way that people automatically work

> their way through Schopenhauer's "38 ways to win

> an argument" without necessarily being aware of

> it. Looks like this debate is over as we have hit

> number 38.

*cue mass google search of Schopenhauer's 38 ways to win an argument*

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

How silly of me to think that people might be enlightened enough to see past an appearance.

Goodness if only those young black men would stop wearing such baggy "pants" and baseball caps pulled down over their eyes they wouldn't look so shifty and get pulled over by the police.

And those nasty Muslim men would kindly shave off their beards and abandon their religious garb for something from the Boden catalogue everything would be just super.

Why do you keep bringing race into it?

[grabot]

Elves actually. The little gits are ruining my life.

[Cassius]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> I am a result of my genetics plus my environment.

>

>

> I can't change the way I talk or react to

> situations anymore than someone who is black or

> asian can change their ethnicity, and I shouldn't

> have to.

Same for me - however I just happen to be someone who was brought up in a white-middle class background - it was expected of me to go to Grammar School (I did) - to get a degree (I did) - to enter one of the professions (I did). Yet that makes me a class enemy to some on this board. To be working class, live up to that stereotype - good - to be middle class, live up to that stereotype - bad.

[Brendan]

Can I just stop you all there and get back to the issue at hand.

This is not about race or class. It is about the responsibilities of dog owners.

I don?t think anyone should have an automatic ?right? to own a dog. If you want one you have to first accept your responsibility towards the welfare of that dog and the welfare of the people that dog will come into contact with.

This is what is not happening. Perhaps we should ask someone at the rspca who has to put down the hundreds of Staffordshire terriers that are abandoned about it.

[david_carnell]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

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> Why do you keep bringing race into it?

Fine. Should I pick on another discriminated-against section of society instead? Women perhaps? The disabled? Do you see what I'm trying to do/say?

Why is it ok for people to actively and openly express their distaste for one group/class/etc of society without fear of retribution and yet if you made the same sorts of comments about any other group (like those above) you'd be lynched on here.

I have as much of a problem with owners of dangerous dogs as the next person, have every sympathy with those who have been unfortunate enough to been attacked or know someone that has but I'm not going to let that sympathy turn into a laissez-faire attitude towards discrimination and nasty vitriol.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Being middle-class is not bad, no-one has said that, but why should the middle-classes expect everyone else to aspire to be like them and criticise people who act/talk/dress differently?

[James]

Yes, I am puzzled by the race thing too. I don't like chavs therefore I am a racist. How does that work?

CWALD I would reassert that all the things you describe make you working class. If anyone discriminates against you because of this, shame on them. But I repeat, this is not the same as being a chav - in the same way that being black does not make you a gangster rapper - obviously. Perhaps it is you who are stereotyping.

Nobody NEEDS to own a dangerous dog. I also believe that nobody should have the right to own a dangerous dog.

Funny how the only people you CAN legitimately discriminate against are the middle classes. The amount of sneering jibes aimed at them on this forum is incredible. Kel and David's comments remind me of this - some kind of weird self-loathing going on here (as you are almost certainly middle class too).

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Sorry that was a sweeping generalisation - what I should have said, was why do some middle-class people expect social homogenisation?

[KalamityKel]

James, just to further interupt the flow of this thread, I would like to point out I am not "middle class" and would kindly ask you to stop making judgements of people you do not know. You are provoking others into arguing with you over an issue that is not relevent to this thread. If you would like to continue this else where then please do but please refrain from making personal hits on people based on factless, pointless and empty opinions.

Back on track... I agree with brendan and also a much earlier comment of re-introducing the dog licence. Stronger monitoring and even controls of who actually owns what type of dog and where the dog resides, i.e. in an area where either many kids are or indeed a large number of other dogs could help prevent others getting hurt.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Fine. Should I pick on another discriminated-against section of society instead? Women perhaps? The disabled? Do you see what I'm trying to do/say?

Why is it ok for people to actively and openly express their distaste for one group/class/etc of society without fear of retribution and yet if you made the same sorts of comments about any other group (like those above) you'd be lynched on here.

When I was talking about "appearance" I meant the way people dressed, not physical characteristics. I feel prejudged......

I have as much of a problem with owners of dangerous dogs as the next person, have every sympathy with those who have been unfortunate enough to been attacked or know someone that has but I'm not going to let that sympathy turn into a laissez-faire attitude towards discrimination and nasty vitriol.

What discrimination? There's a big difference between making assumptions about people and actively discriminating against them.

[James]

Kel, you and David C have made lots of unfounded and ignorant assumptions about me so if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Also funny how you accuse me of banging on about class when you keep banging on about race - which has even less to do with it.