Lime bikes (and other hire companies) left in middle of pavement

[legalalien]

Is suspect it’s the companies themselves who are the worst culprits in terms of scattering bikes in inconvenient locations. I’ve only seen a few people on them locally and they have tended to be 30ish young women. Maybe later in the evening people ride them home after a few drinks as an alternative to a taxi (are they a good substitute for an Uber?)

[jazzer]

what do you mean by "greenwashing"?

[Spartacus]

Just been driven back from Surrey and lime bikes are dotted all over pavements along the route, some in clusters of 4 to 6 blocking the pavements.

It's not just here that it's happening and feedback to the trial should state they shouldn't be abandoned outside of specific drop points or blocking pavements for pedestrians, buggy and wheel chair users.

[malumbu]

Goodness gracious, I post something constructive and I just get rants and then Rock's usual Southwark stuff. Please try to think a bit wider.

[Rockets]

Malumbu, we are thinking wider that’s why many of us are posing the questions the pro-lobby often choose to overlook! ;-) I think it is clear scooters are not replacing car journeys but walking and public transport and therefore there are minimal climate change benefits - in fact their impact may be detrimental - those battery packs alone that they have to replace constantly will have a significant negative environmental impact.

Greenwashing is the act of falsely upping your environmental credentials - i.e. councils able to say we are supporting green initiatives like e-scooters to promote active travel.

[first mate]

I din't feel there is a great mystery as to why people dump bikes; they do it because they currently can and can get away with it. Yup, guess many of the 'virtuous' cyclists are just as lazy as those alleged local latte drinking car drivers.

There will have to probably be away found to impose on the spot fines. Dumping bikes on the path willy nilly could be viewed as a form of littering and come under PSPOS. Local community/parking wardens could monitor with camera cars and start to issue fines. Draconian, yes but this could get out of control quite quickly, especially in summer months.

[Bic Basher]

So I was on an e-bike yesterday evening and as I was riding down the hill at Beauval Road towards Townley Road, I was overtaken by a "proper" cyclist who tore down the hill while I was being considerate with my speed towards pedestrians and car users.

It happened again on Colwell Road by another cyclist who cut me up while speeding.

While I respect that they were competent cyclists with years of experience, there would be people outraged if it was someone on a motorbike or scooter.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Some quite interesting background on the scooter / ebike situation here

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s109708/Report%20-%20IDM%20Pan%20London%20E-scooter%20Trial%20and%20Southwark%20E-bike%20Trial%20final.pdf

Looks like to date Southwark hasn’t has a formal arrangement with the ebike operators allowing docking stations etc but has less formally allowed bikes to be dropped and collected from pavements etc ( with no financial benefit to the council it would seem). A cynic might say that by behaving badly the bike operators have forced Southwark to the table to make a more formal agreement. It’s not clear to me that Southwark is going to demand more than its costs associated with making parking arrangements ( see paras 35 and 36), I certainly think they should be ( we’re talking corporate multinationals running these services for profit, not local folk trying to save the planet, whatever the marketing hype might suggest).

You've got totally the wrong end of the stick here. Bikes are bikes regardless of who owns them. You don't need a permit or agreement with the council to rent or use them in Southwark. The reason we have never had major problems with bikes blocking pavements in the past was because people locked them to things which by their nature don't tend to be right in the middle of pavements. Southwark isn't luring bike rental companies into a trap because they have neither the secrecy nor the legal power to close the trap.

[first mate]

Don't think Legal said Southwark were trying to lure bike companies into a trap, anywhere? Just expressing surprise that bike hire companies are getting so much access to public paths with little responsibility.

Agree with Bicbasher. When out cycling I have felt most intimidated by the behaviour of other cyclists, also by the odd car driver but generally other cyclists who want to go faster.

Southwark parking wardens can use CCTV cars to monitor bike and scooter dumping areas at distance, they can catch riders in the act of dumping and fine them. That might be some deterrent.

[legalalien]

I’m not sure about the “trap” idea either, just saying that if Southwark is going to do a deal to facilitate parking bays etc specifically for these companies then they should be charging them commercial rates of some sort.

And thinking about it, to set they stage they could do worse than start clearing the pavements of abandoned hire bikes, pending an agreement- which it seems is what Westminster are doing - see https://www.moveelectric.com/e-bikes/westminster-council-starts-seizing-rental-e-bikes-left-pavements.

Southwark did, after all, sign up to the Equal Pavements Pledge just a few months ago…

https://www.southwarklabour.com/2022/07/15/southwark-labour-passes-the-equal-pavements-pledge/

[malumbu]

Separate thread matter, biggest threat to me are (illegal) Deliveroo and similar riders on twist and go electric bikes at 25 mph on the inside. These bikes should not be on the road, the delivery companies do not insist on training, and if they do ride like this please overtake on the outside.

Enforcement is up to the police, and government need to tackle this. Some local authorities take action but most have other things to focus on, and as per sentence above why should they sort out this mess.

And of course many of us happily order takeaways, and this is now moving to small grocery deliveries. Dunno if any party will make this a manifesto commitments.

E bikes, ie electrical assistance, are great, and for me something for the future

[first mate]

Really useful links Legal.

I also noticed that in the earlier link to Southwark plans they are intending to enlarge areas for hire bikes and scooters to be left but also trumpeting inclusivity and how they are monitoring impacts on those with mobility issues.

Lots of box ticking rhetoric somewhat divorced from the reality of what is actually happening...as ever.

 

I’m not sure about the “trap” idea either, just saying that if Southwark is going to do a deal to facilitate parking bays etc specifically for these companies then they should be charging them commercial rates of some sort.

And thinking about it, to set they stage they could do worse than start clearing the pavements of abandoned hire bikes, pending an agreement- which it seems is what Westminster are doing - see https://www.moveelectric.com/e-bikes/westminster-council-starts-seizing-rental-e-bikes-left-pavements.

Southwark did, after all, sign up to the Equal Pavements Pledge just a few months ago…

https://www.southwarklabour.com/2022/07/15/southwark-labour-passes-the-equal-pavements-pledge/

[first mate]

Wanted also to take issue with the notion that the reason bikes and scooters are left lying around is because there is nothing to lock them to?

Most hire bikes and scooters have a stand that enables the bike to be parked upright, neatly. It just takes a bit more time and effort to do that and therein lies the problem. Seems lots of users just cannot be bothered.

 

Some quite interesting background on the scooter / ebike situation here

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s109708/Report%20-%20IDM%20Pan%20London%20E-scooter%20Trial%20and%20Southwark%20E-bike%20Trial%20final.pdf

Looks like to date Southwark hasn’t has a formal arrangement with the ebike operators allowing docking stations etc but has less formally allowed bikes to be dropped and collected from pavements etc ( with no financial benefit to the council it would seem). A cynic might say that by behaving badly the bike operators have forced Southwark to the table to make a more formal agreement. It’s not clear to me that Southwark is going to demand more than its costs associated with making parking arrangements ( see paras 35 and 36), I certainly think they should be ( we’re talking corporate multinationals running these services for profit, not local folk trying to save the planet, whatever the marketing hype might suggest).

You've got totally the wrong end of the stick here. Bikes are bikes regardless of who owns them. You don't need a permit or agreement with the council to rent or use them in Southwark. The reason we have never had major problems with bikes blocking pavements in the past was because people locked them to things which by their nature don't tend to be right in the middle of pavements. Southwark isn't luring bike rental companies into a trap because they have neither the secrecy nor the legal power to close the trap.

[legalalien]

Just to add I hope that when councils consider/ agree to exclusive parking arrangements for commercial hire bikes, they think about arrangements for private owners of conventional and ebikes as well. I don’t think there should be automatic priority for commercial operators in terms of prime spots or speed of roll out (let’s not forget, it’s in the interest of the commercial operators to create an infrastructure which makes it easier for people to use the hire bikes and not their own bikes).

Maybe a principle that for every commercial parking area allocated, there needs to be a similar spot for non- hire users?

[Bic Basher]

I found one of the Lime scooters dumped on London Road in Forest Hill, despite the fact e-scooters are supposed to be docked at e-scooter bays. It was right next to a Lime bike as well.

[legalalien]

Just to confirm, the escooter trial extension and the ebike trial have been approved

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?Id=7739

Hopefully Southwark will be robust in negotiating the MoUs with the ebike operators ( I’d suggest that reimbursement of costs associated with the trial should include a fee to cover internal admin and legal costs but I’ll bet there is a reference to out of pocket costs and some limited categories!)

I am concerned about escooter safety but not in the same way with ebike safety, it would be interesting to understand the degree to which users see one as substitutable for the other. If we have an ebike scheme do we really need an escooter scheme as well? What are the advantages of escooters - are they cheaper / take up less storage space.? Or just more appealing to the younger generation? Does anyone know the thinking on this?

[first mate]

LL, That is an interesting point and one that had not occurred to me. Why do we need both?

[exdulwicher]

LL, That is an interesting point and one that had not occurred to me. Why do we need both?

 

The two main ones:

Cargo capacity.

Range (not so much the range of the vehicle but the actual comfort level for the user - scooters are a pain for anything over a couple of miles, bikes you can pretty much ride all day).

I've not seen a huge amount of info on the "user groups" or the demographics between e-bike uses and e-scooter users but I'm sure it's out there. Noting that the scooter hire schemes require users to be over 18 and hold a driving licence which will dramatically skew the data anyway.

[malumbu]

Scooters are more inherently dangerous than bikes, both standard and electronic versions.

If you need to stop quickly on a bike you push your weight back. Having no saddle and a higher centre of gravity on a scooter means much more likely to go over your bars. Worse the faster you go.

I don't see scooters and bikes being interchangable

[legalalien]

I completely agree, I support the ebike initiative but not the escooter one. But there must be a commercial rationale for offering escooters as well as bikes, so I’m guessing it’s partly cost and partly the fact that there must be some people who would hire an escooter but not a bike. Browsing around the internet this morning it seems like something like 50-60% of escooter journeys are substituting for journeys that would otherwise be walked, I’m not sure the same would be true for ebike use. So maybe a slightly different market. Apart from the safety point, using an escooter instead of walking doesn’t seem particularly beneficial in terms of reduced energy usage or active travel, so I’m still not an escooter fan.

[exdulwicher]

Browsing around the internet this morning it seems like something like 50-60% of escooter journeys are substituting for journeys that would otherwise be walked, I’m not sure the same would be true for ebike use. So maybe a slightly different market. Apart from the safety point, using an escooter instead of walking doesn’t seem particularly beneficial in terms of reduced energy usage or active travel, so I’m still not an escooter fan.

 

It's classified as micro-mobility rather than Active Travel although it does fulfil a gap for journeys too long for easy walking but not far enough to bother getting a bike out for.

[first mate]

I guess the problem there is when micro mobility hinders Active Travel, which it does if scooters are cluttering up the pavements and left lying around in an inappropriate way.

 

Browsing around the internet this morning it seems like something like 50-60% of escooter journeys are substituting for journeys that would otherwise be walked, I’m not sure the same would be true for ebike use. So maybe a slightly different market. Apart from the safety point, using an escooter instead of walking doesn’t seem particularly beneficial in terms of reduced energy usage or active travel, so I’m still not an escooter fan.

 

It's classified as micro-mobility rather than Active Travel although it does fulfil a gap for journeys too long for easy walking but not far enough to bother getting a bike out for.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Wanted also to take issue with the notion that the reason bikes and scooters are left lying around is because there is nothing to lock them to?

Most hire bikes and scooters have a stand that enables the bike to be parked upright, neatly. It just takes a bit more time and effort to do that and therein lies the problem. Seems lots of users just cannot be bothered.

 

I'm not saying there is nothing to lock them to. I am saying that lazy users don't lock them to anything. The old Lime bikes would not the rider complete the rental without attaching a cable lock into the frame. The new bikes can be left anywhere - and so people do.

[exdulwicher]

I guess the problem there is when micro mobility hinders Active Travel, which it does if scooters are cluttering up the pavements and left lying around in an inappropriate way.

 

This is very true.

Can be an issue for blind/partially sighted pedestrians or for people pushing prams/buggies/wheelchairs.

[legalalien]

Actually went down an internet wormhole earlier and ended up reading an interesting article about the roll out of escooters in Bergen. It was met by a stickering campaign by Norway’s equivalent to the RNIB , who put stickers on scooters found on pavements along the lines of “this scooter has caused difficulties for blind and partially sighted people”.