Thatcher Is Dead

[*Bob*]

I think if you look at a lot of 'most loved' and 'most hated' lists, you often find the same names cropping-up in both. There are no shortage of Thatcher lovers piping up - and of course haters are always more vocal than lovers.

People have a tendency to be selfish, so any opinion on Thatch will more often than not down to personal profit or loss as a direct result of her reign.

I have two friends from the old industrial north glad to have been spared the only the way of life which would otherwise have been on offer, had things turned-out differently. As one put it, a town where you 'have' to go down a coal mine can be just as depressing - at least on an individual level - as one where the pit closes.

Agree on Ireland, but again (as per my previous point) in some ways Thatchers failed position of resolute intransigence (unwittingly) paved the way for Major.

[DulwichFox]

Margaret Thatcher was bitterly opposed Germany's reunification.

She divided the Nation .. She even Divided her home Town Grantham.

That is why she hated the Trades Unions.

A Nation that is Divided is Weak and can easily be Defeated.

DulwichFox

[El Pibe]

"Thatchers failed position of resolute intransigence (unwittingly) paved the way for Major"

Was the point I was going to make. Wars sometimes they have to be fought before they can end.

Her intransigence effectively stalemated the IRA who thought they could win the war (equally she was wrong in her analysis that they could be defeated).

Sometimes a period of suffering is necessary to create a more fecund environment where peace can take root.

Anyway woody is right, god knows I'm bored of it dominating the mainstream news, can we get back to clowns please.

[Penguin68]

A Nation that is Divided is Weak and can easily be Defeated.

That's what the Argentines thought when they invaded the Falkland Isles. At that time Mrs T was close to a nadir and could quite easily have been defeated at the ballot box by her own electors. Though, in fact, following her election to be Tory leader she never (as she was quite keen on stressing) ever lost another election. She even won the leadership contest round that saw her resign. She just didn't win by a big enough margin. She was personally never defeated. And neither was her divided nation. I have little truck for much of what she did and said, and I believe that parts of her world view were fatally flawed. But in this case, actual history trumps slogans.

[*Bob*]

Of course, one must not forget the great example of an undivided, strong nation - that Britain was prior to Thatch's arrival.

[El Pibe]

"A Nation that is Divided is Weak and can easily be Defeated."

Appropriately the corollary to this is effectively the core belief underpinning fascism.

I find it difficult to believe someone is making the case that the most divisive character in modern british politics was somehow a unifying force.

Jesus, she left her own party shattered, which even 20 years on has barely managed to paper over the cracks.

[El Pibe]

yeah yeah, clowns, shutup pibs.

[*Bob*]

Cool wet clowns, cool wet clowns

[the-e-dealer]

I admire nothing about her. I don't wish anyone dead or celebrate her death. She was Education Minister when I was at School. The books were falling apart and that's how her impact on Britain Started.

[the-e-dealer]

Good to see Vicanna's not totally Stupid!

Vicanna Wrote:

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> Yeah, there's that as well. But more importantly

> it shows liberals up for the scum they are.

[Mick Mac]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> Was the point I was going to make. Wars sometimes

> they have to be fought before they can end.

> Her intransigence effectively stalemated the IRA

> who thought they could win the war (equally she

> was wrong in her analysis that they could be

> defeated).

I don't know what papers you have been reading EP but you appear brainwashed.

Under her governance they were at their most threatening and had most support. It could ahve gone on forever. It was a very frightening time and a scary place to live. Only when the IRA activity was extended to the financial sector (bishopsgate) did John Major take notice and the first sustainable action to resolve for the long term.

With her it was always personal, they killed Airey Neave.

[Otta]

Mike Dodd Wrote:

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> what a great day she has finally gone hope she

> suffered as much as my family did the f???ing cow

Your family all had nasty strokes?

[El Pibe]

What part of "effectively stalemated" somehow differs from "It could ahve[sic] gone on forever"?

The IRA had been putting feelers out to the security services for negotiations from the mid eighties onwards, but it was Maggie who pooh poohed them with her legendary 'convictions'.

When Major came along he was keen for a new approach from the off and gave the greenlight for the security services to begin talks (metatalks really, ie talks to begin talks); the city bombings were done to strengthen a negotiating position not force anyone to the table.

I may be many annoying or unsavoury things MM, but brainwashed or spoon-fed isn't one of them..

-- edit --

A bit of digging and I'm mistaken, it wasn't Major on coming in to office, it was actually Thatch herself prior to leaving!!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/oct/16/northernireland.thatcher

It seems just like to many other things, she saw too much through the lens of the cold war, and indirectly ew may have Gorbachev to thank for the first shoots of peace in NI.

A weird world indeed.

[Mick Mac]

I read this last night

"Thatcher gave approval to talks with IRA"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/30/thatcher-cabinet-hunger-strike-national-archives

But this "channel" was not (as you seem to suggest EP) at this stage anything to do with seeking peace through negotiation - it was damage limitation, instigated by her. An outright concession on political prisoner status that she would never admit to. Jim Prior passed on the concessions. She gave in to the terrorists but too late, the damage was done, people had taken their own lives. The hunger strike deaths set in motion 10+ more years of violence. Completley mismanaged and a disaster for Nortern Ireland.

Our opinions on this are likely to be polar opposites, so see it as you wish. Don't forget that the media reporting on Nortern Ireland was controlled by the Northern Ireland Office. As in any war, your views may have been heavily influenced. I suspect they have been.

My own mother had such a trust in the British media that she did not believe that Bloody Sunday had happended the way the people of Derry told her it had happended. It took many years before she believed it.

[El Pibe]

Why on earth would our positions be polar opposite? What a bizarre statement.

And I'm not taking this from the media but from the memoirs? and history books I've read (seeing as I'm moving there in about 8 months I thought it right I get a decent grasp of Irish history you see).

You keep talking like you're disagreeing with me whilst bolstering my assertion every time.

Indeed the channels during the hunger strikes had nothing to do with peace negotiations, and yes the results of this ossified government intransigence whilst giving the hardliners a free hand in the IRA, as well as massive popular support.

This ushered in the a new period of conflict which the IRA thought they could win, by which I mean break the resolve and the ability of the UK government to continue to fight, as the IRA of the previous generation had managed in the struggle for independence.

This failed and a stalemate ensued during which much of the IRA infrastructure was compromised by informants and the UK took tiny steps towards a dirty war? (notably leaking of names to paramilitaries and the use of special forces) which hampered but failed ultimately to impede the IRA's ability to conduct its operations.

As horrible as the conflict was it did convince the likes of Adams and McGuiness that a negotiated political settlement was the only realistic goal. These were the channels, begun in the mid-late eighties that I referred to that became unofficially official in 1990, and revealed to the world in 1993 as a precursor to the round table (well round often seperate tables, but baby steps) talks that gave rise to the good friday agreement.

Hence my original (rather shorter) point that sometimes you need a bit of war war before you can have meaningful jaw jaw.

Sorry to have to spell it out but you seem to be labouring under two misapprehensions, 1) that I seem to be taking the side of the UK gov't and 2) I don't know what I'm talking about.

? also my best mate from when I was 4, eventually my best man was a Derry boy, his dad at school with Martin McGuiness. We used to get very excited every time he came back from visiting family with trophy rubber bullets and the like, and I've argued politics with his dad since more times than I can remember

? what naive times now that 'targetted assasination'? barely raises an eyebrow and Obama's 'drone programme'? practially passes without comment any more.

? murder by any other name

edited to say "wibble"

[Jah Lush]

I've just heard she won't be cremated. Apparently, the lady's not for burning.

[Chillaxed]

EP, how do you edit posts without it being noted automatically?

[El Pibe]

yeah oops and sorry, that was because I'm still logged in as Mockney Piers on Opera, and I was doing some testing on that browser when I clarified my clarifications.

It wasn't done on purpose (I avoid mockers like the plague as I feel all guilty and start having to tidy up the forum when I do log in)

I'll re-edit it in Chrome as EP if it makes you more comfortable.

[Mick Mac]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> Why on earth would our positions be polar

> opposite? What a bizarre statement.

>

Polar opposites maybe a bit strong, but we have discussed this area before and Irish v British views are often expected to be very different on this subject. No big surprise therefore that we dont agree.

[Chillaxed]

Just wondered how it's done so I could do it actually. Sitting comfortably.

El Pibe Wrote:

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> yeah oops and sorry, that was because I'm still

> logged in as Mockney Piers on Opera, and I was

> doing some testing on that browser when I

> clarified my clarifications.

>

> It wasn't done on purpose (I avoid mockers like

> the plague as I feel all guilty and start having

> to tidy up the forum when I do log in)

>

> I'll re-edit it in Chrome as EP if it makes you

> more comfortable.

[El Pibe]

Fine, but it's a pretty vanilla analysis to be fair, in fact that narrative barely evenqualifies as analysis. I'm not espousing anything controversial here.

[malumbu]

I am going to change my name to Malibu. Like it!

Its not just a North and South thing, most of the Midlands despised her as well, and of course Wales and Scotland. But of course a lot of people live in the Sarf. I was in Oxforshire during the miners strike and there were rabid people there saying that they would rather burn furniture than give into the miners. Probably the same people who supported the unconstitutional methods she used to break the miners and print workers.

The big battle (was it Orgreave?) almost had sign posts to the miners to come in to the ambush. Ah the enemy within, such charming words (what did she say about the poll tax protestors?).

Good debate on NI. Some people over there are more rabid than those I worked with in Oxfordshire.

Three landslide elections? The swing was mainly away from the Liberals in 79 and this was an open goal (like Blair in 97, and what should have been Dave in 2010), 83 don't count (and of course SDP split the labour vote) and 87 I just got pissed instead (although I expect that was due to all the negative propaganda against a very principalled but probably unelectable opposition leader).

Anyway, just remembered another reason why I despised her - her hatred of football and that she effectively destroyed a working class game, no doubt opening the door to Murdoch and similar.

Good point about let's leave the dead, dead, and get on with hating some of those alive. She's been effectively dead for years in any case. Churchill wasn't necessarily the popular leader that we think he was but 65 years later he is remembered for one main thing.

Yours, liberal scum xxxx

[Loz]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> My own mother had such a trust in the British media that she did not believe that Bloody Sunday

> had happended the way the people of Derry told her it had happended. It took many years before she

> believed it.

I'm pretty sure that neither account is the real truth of what happened that day.

[Mick Mac]

El Pibe, I don't think your analysis is plain vanilla anything but. I think the controversy lies in your view of who had control of the process which I think you have assumed to be the gvernment and also that the government looked into resolving the problem in any serious way prior to bombs hitting the financial centre is wrong. You credit Thatcher with making positive moves through the "channels" pre Major, but I'm unsure what exactly you were crediting her with.

Im not sure why I'm going on about this but as its a thread about Margaret Thatchers legacy. Here is a view from Sinn Feins Danny Morrison about Maggie. I have never been a Sinn Fein supporter but this did remind me of how some people felt such hatred for her.

I felt there was no real democracy in Northern Ireland at the time. But people gave their lives for it in many different ways. Thatcher made it significantly worse. . I would argue with anyone who gave credit to MT for Northern Ireland , she didn't stand up to terrorists, she created terrorists.

http://www.dannymorrison.com/?p=2538

[Loz]

I think Thatcher made a big mistake with her ban on Sinn Fein's voices being broadcast. If she really wanted to make a point, she would have legislated that Gerry Adam's voiceover had to be performed by a 13 year old girl with a lisp.