St. Francesca Cabrini primary school may close permanently

[alice]

Faith schools? Look at NI.

Wouldn?t it be great if the nuns decided to give the land to Southwark council for the building of the many many many homes that are needed.

[jazzer]

If you have no faith you are a lost soul.

Nigello Wrote:

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> If your faith is important, DIY! Ample time for

> instruction at home. Most folk are godless but

> dissemble to get better education - hardly the

> stuff of religious values.

[first mate]

Jazzer, 'my point' was in response to another poster who stated Southwark did not have much sway over Harris schools- while this is true, at the time, when JB was our councillor, he (and by extension Southwark) was closely involved in getting a number of school sites acquired because there was a stated massive requirement for as many schools as possible in the borough. Clearly, if schools cannot fill their classes they will cease to be viable. The point stands that, it seems, Southwark have not done a great job of understanding intake requirements for the borough.

jazzer Wrote:

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> And your point is?????????????????

>

> If it's a dig at James, he's no longer a

> councillor, so a wasted dig.

>

> first mate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > James Barber was instrumental in helping Harris

> > acquire two sites (Harris boys opposite the

> > Peckham Rye and Harris primary on site of old

> > police station, Lordship Lane) and getting

> Charter

> > the lion's share of the hospital site.

> > Sally Eva Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > sweetgirl Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > I?d like to see what James barber has to

> say

> > on

> > > > this matter, after all he was one of the

> > > persons

> > > > involved in making Harris primary happen

> when

> > > it

> > > > clearly wasn?t needed!

> > > >

> > > > It?s unbelievable what councils like to

> waste

> > > > money on!

> > >

> > > I'm not sure how much input the council has

> > over

> > > the Harris academy in Peckham. It describes

> > itself

> > > as "an education charity run by teachers" and

> > has

> > > 31 schools in London and Essex

> > >

> >

> https://www.harrisfederation.org.uk/80/welcome-fro

>

> >

> > > m-the-chief-executive

[legalalien]

Will be quite an interesting process actually. Is currently a registered charity and looks like its charitable objects relate to activities carried out by the nuns in the U.K.

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/230756/what-who-how-where

They?ll want to use / dispose of the assets in an appropriate way before the charity is wound up (assuming they are winding up).

Hard to know exactly what they could use the trust assets for without seeing the underlying trust deed/ scheme.

alice Wrote:

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> Faith schools? Look at NI.

> Wouldn?t it be great if the nuns decided to give

> the land to Southwark council for the building of

> the many many many homes that are needed.

[jazzer]

Maybe the plan is to take the assets value with them when they go.

My other thought is what will happen to the Nun's who have given their lives to the convent and school. Will they have to return overseas or can they have a well earned and deserved retirement?

[alice]

There?s a change.org online funding request which says the nuns are ?withdrawing their sponsorship? of the school and moving out en masse. Does that imply anything about ownership of the site?

[Soylent Green]

School closures do not surprise me because there are considerably fewer young children in the area. I work as a supply teacher, so visit lots of schools across Southwark, Lewisham and Lambeth, and can think of only a handful of schools that have the full 30 per class. Most average around 23. There has also been talk of making Dog Kennel Hill (which had the full 30 per class ten years ago) a one form entry, St John's school in Camberwell has closed and another primary near the Elephant (Townsend) is also closing. You can't blame the council for responding to the call for more primary places, which were much needed from 2005 to 2017 approx, as young families poured into the area and cried out for good, local school places for their children as they moved into the area. The expansion of the most successful schools (eg Goodrich, Ivydale and Dulwich Hamlet with their subsidiary, the Belham) has meant other local schools have lost out as families continue to opt for these more 'desirable schools' and their catchments expand. This will inevitably leave to school closures.

The other thing you can hardly blame the council for is using past data on the migration of families out of the area as their kids reached secondary age (wanting more space, grammar schools etc)to inform their planning. Otherwise, their decisions would be based on what? Sadly, as the price of extending your home became cheaper than moving and secondary schools expanded (Kingsdale, Charter ED extension of Charter), families have chosen to stay put reducing the availability of family homes for sale.

[Moovart]

It is sad that we don't seem willing, due to cost, to just make the most of the reduction in class sizes and use the opportunity to have improved teacher pupil ratios and improve the education provided. Thirty children in a mixed ability class is still alot to cope with when some children have additional learning needs.

We could embrace the falling class sizes for the teaching and learning opportunity this could offer but we would have to pay more tax so I guess we'll close schools instead

[oimissus]

It doesn't really make that much difference - I believe a class size has to drop to 15 for there to be a noticeable change.

Most primaries have lost whatever TA support they had.

And there's the cost of maintaining and half-empty building.

I also don't blame the council for opening additional primaries. The pandemic and Brexit have upended everything.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I do have an issue with publicly funded schools which then have discriminatory admissions policies, based on a parent's religion.

jazzer Wrote:

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> You may yourself be against religious schools, but

> they allow parents to have their children brought

> up and taught with faith, nothing wrong with that

> and it instils value's and morals which are sadly

> lacking from today's society. It may not be

> everyone's choice, but choice there is and it does

> no harm whatever your believe is or is not.

>

> Nigello Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I am against religious schools though it?s

> never

> > good when an established school has to go.

[jazzer]

No problem with you "having an issue with publicly funded schools which then have discriminatory admissions policies, based on a parent's religion", that's your choice but for some having their child taught in a religious school is important.

And; As I have already said it instils values that are lacking from general society. And Yes, I did go to a Religious school and it did me no harm. It makes you a more "rounded" person with an appreciation of the benefits of having a belief, whatever that belief maybe.

[Moovart]

Slightly dodgy ground suggesting religious schools instil higher values than non religious schools given the scandals exposed within various churches in recent years.

People brought up in a secular education also hold good values and can appreciate the value of a belief in something.

Good and bad exists everywhere.

jazzer Wrote:

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> No problem with you "having an issue with publicly

> funded schools which then have discriminatory

> admissions policies, based on a parent's

> religion", that's your choice but for some having

> their child taught in a religious school is

> important.

>

> And; As I have already said it instils values that

> are lacking from general society. And Yes, I did

> go to a Religious school and it did me no harm. It

> makes you a more "rounded" person with an

> appreciation of the benefits of having a belief,

> whatever that belief maybe.

[jazzer]

I don't defend any inappropriate behaviour and any such behaviour needs to be exposed and dealt with by the law and justice system.

However that is all getting away from the main point and fact that this primary school may well be closing, so perhaps its better for all of us to stick to the jiste of the thread title.

[Nigello]

I very much think it will depend on who employed them and who pays their pension and whether they have resident rights, etc. Nuns and other clergy do not need to be placed above or below anyone else, even if they do give service, as applies to bus drivers, dental nurses, teachers, street cleaners, midwives, builders, radiologists, etc. etc. etc.

[legalalien]

I'm not so convinced about the pandemic/ Brexit rationale that the council are pointing to as the primary cause of the oversupply. A big chunk of it is in the north of the borough in the areas where the council have sold off/ decanted estates, replaced them with high value private investment properties, and effectively forced less well off local families out of the area, to be replaced by student accommodation, empty investment properties, Air B&B etc - meaning less need for local schools and schools closing as a result.

Then in other parts of the borough (slightly more well off areas?), building new, shiny academy schools which are more attractive to parents (and cheaper to run in terms of things like building maintenance, heating costs etc) putting existing schools in old Victorian buildings with possibly slightly less-well-heeled parents at a disadvantage, causing their rolls to drop, resulting in less government funding triggering less funding for them to provide bells and whistles - less attractive to parents... big debt etc. - a spiral downwards.

I guess that's market forces at work, and we do have a conservative government after all. I wonder whether we're moving from children in ED having to travel to school slightly further afield due to a bulge in the primary population, to children from slightly further afield travelling to ED and children from ED travelling to DV's state and independent schools (let's hope their parents aren't driving them there :) ). Not sure whether that's a good or a bad thing overall tbh.

[ianr]

It is unlawful for maintained and independent schools to discriminate against a child on the grounds of the child?s religion or belief in school admissions. However, faith schools are exempt and are permitted to use faith-based oversubscription criteria in order to give higher priority in admissions to children who are members of, or who practise, their faith or denomination. This only applies if a school is oversubscribed.https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06972/SN06972.pdf

The school's admission policy is set out at http://www.stfrancescacabrini.co.uk/school-information/admissions.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

jazzer Wrote:

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> for some having

> their child taught in a religious school is

> important.

If it's so important for their kids to be educated in their faith then they can get their arse into gear and take their kids along to Sabbath School or Summer School.

[kristymac1]

Wouldn't it be fabulous if the school could become a specialist school for children with specific additional needs, e.g ASD, PDA, SPD, ADHD etc - something very very lacking in Southwark (whose documented preference is to shove everyone, whether it meets need or not, into mainstream).

[alice]

Could someone list the special schools that are in southwark? Putting children with diverse sen needs together is not a good idea.

[legalalien]

Not sure if this list is up to date

https://localoffer.southwark.gov.uk/education/specialist-schools/southwark-resource-base-and-specialist-schools/specialist-schools/

I think I read somewhere that there is to be specialist provision for autism at Charter ED, which seems consistent with this https://www.tcset.org.uk/inclusive-education

[alice]

Thanks legal alien. I?m not sure we need more schools but we certainly need more housing.

[kristymac1]

Legalalien's list is pretty up to date, all of those schools provide for children with severe to moderate learning disabilities and aren't suitable settings for children with specialist needs who have learning difficulties (primarily because of mainstream setting) but don't have learning disabilities.

Charter does have specialist provision for ASD but it is still mainstream.

The LA themselves admit that there is a lack of provision in primary in particular for 'high functioning' ASD. (BTW I hate the term high functioning - it implies low need which couldn't be further from the truth)

alice Wrote:

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> Thanks legal alien. I?m not sure we need more

> schools but we certainly need more housing.

[kristymac1]

But putting children with diverse SEN needs in mainstream schools is a good idea?

It is not uncommon for ND children (and adults) to have diverse specialist needs, ASD/PDA/SPD/ADHD not an uncommon cocktail that requires specialist setting for most.

alice Wrote:

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> Could someone list the special schools that are in

> southwark? Putting children with diverse sen needs

> together is not a good idea.

[Nigello]

All those initials will mean not much to many people, and normalising such conditions is made harder when there is this impenetrability.

[kristymac1]

very good point.

ASD - Autistic Spectrum Disorder (also referred to as ASC - Autistic Spectrum Condition)

PDA - Pathological Demand Avoidance (a particular type of Autism)

SPD - Sensory Processing Disorder (very very common for Autistics but can be diagnosed without an ASD diagnosis)

ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (also common comorbid diagnosis with ASD but also stand alone)

AD - Anxiety Disorder (very common comorbid diagnosis with all of the above!)

Nigello Wrote:

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> All those initials will mean not much to many

> people, and normalising such conditions is made

> harder when there is this impenetrability.