Reduced service bus 12

[CPR Dave]

Anyone else trying to make ends meet who losers customers at the rate tfl have starts to think about discounting.

Tfl have just put their fares up by 4.8%. It's moronic in a downward spiral.

[exdulwicher]

If you live near Barry Rd that leaves just one bus route, 197 only goes as far as Peckham so not much good if you're going into city centre. The 12 route is a main route much used to get into the West End.

The proposal is to replace the Dulwich end of the 12 with the 148 so you're not "losing" the 12 entirely, it's extending the existing 148.

However, it won't be going to Oxford Circus, it'll terminate in town.

At least, that's the proposal.

[Rockets]

Does anyone else worry we are heading for the perfect storm in terms of London transportation: significant reduced frequency of trains, bus routes being cut, traffic chaos caused by the reallocation of road space (especially worrying has been the sacrifice of bus lanes to make cycle lanes)?

I think transport planners need to look carefully at what is happening in the airline industry and realise that if you don't properly anticipate the return to some semblance of normality then it will bite you hard and it is the customer that suffers.

It seems to me that London's transport infrastructure is beginning to creak and wobble and that, ultimately, impacts everyone and their ability to live, work and play in the city.

[CPR Dave]

It won't just be the customer that suffers. It will be all the employees, businesses, galleries, museums, offices, and employers that customers would have visited with better transport that will suffer too.

I can't believe tfl and the Mayor have let it come to this.

[CPR Dave]

350 bus driver jobs affected too.

What a shoddy way to behave

[exdulwicher]

I can't believe tfl and the Mayor have let it come to this.

They haven't.

Even before Covid, London's buses took a subsidy of ?700m from TfL funds, now a lot of that came from the excess that the Tube generated (remember that the previous London Mayor, one Mr B Johnson removed central Government grant for TfL - which was actually almost exactly that sum of money - in 2015).

So TfL had to move to a position of generating most of it's funds from fares - it's usually been around 40 - 45% of its income with the rest coming from Congestion Charge, grants plus minor stuff like advertising on the Underground.

That allows them to run the buses as a "loss leader" which is fair enough; after all public transport is a service to everyone (even drivers!) so it's generally right that it is subsidised although it's less right that Government doesn't subsidise some of it, it's about the only transport authority in the western world not to receive an operating grant from central Government.

Anyway - buses cost TfL ?700m subsidy a year to run.

Covid hit, ridership of bus, tube and train fell off a cliff and fare income all but dried up.

The Government have offered a few short-term funding deals, grants, loans etc but they've come heavily caveated and ringfenced requiring cuts to infrastructure projects, fare increases, service cuts etc. At one point there were requests, from Government, to remove free travel for Under 18's and 60-65 (which TfL fought back against and eventually the Government stepped back from that one).

None of this is the fault of TfL or Sadiq Khan although it plays well for the Tory Government to let people believe that. Especially since the current PM is the former Mayor of London who left TfL's finances in such a terrible position anyway with Garden Bridges and Boris Airport "plans". Pie in the sky stuff that had hundreds of millions of ?? wasted on them.

What you really need to be saying is "I can't believe the Government have let it come to this".

Except that everyone would believe that - the single role of the Government at the moment is to keep Boris in power and pretend that Brexit "got done", not worry about any of that minor running the country stuff.

[Bic Basher]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you live near Barry Rd that leaves just one bus

> route, 197 only goes as far as Peckham so not much

> good if you're going into city centre. The 12

> route is a main route much used to get into the

> West End.

>

> The proposal is to replace the Dulwich end of the

> 12 with the 148 so you're not "losing" the 12

> entirely, it's extending the existing 148.

> However, it won't be going to Oxford Circus, it'll

> terminate in town.

>

> At least, that's the proposal.

The 148 will terminate at Shepherd's Bush under the proposals. It currently goes to White City.

[jazzer]

Who is responsible for TfL , Sadiq is, therefore either he puts in place plans to maintain the service, (which he isn't doing based on the drastic changes being proposed) or he takes responsibility and holds his hands up for his ineptitude and financial incompetence for not running TfL effectively.

[Rockets]

Yes and he has been responsible for it since 2016, that's a long time so trying to blame the Tories seems the usual "find someone else to blame and shirk any responsibility or accountability" from the left (anyone noticed the full court, coordinated press to try to deflect attention away from TFL and Sadiq from lots of Labour voices today - talk about cut and paste social posts from the usual suspects....it's almost as if someone is telling them when to press post...?

Despite the claims this is TFL making the cuts, the same TFL that is spending huge amounts of money on controversial projects like the Silverton tunnel.

Love how Cllr Williams links to a petition that says Stop the Tory Cuts....he knows these are TFL/Labour cuts....but hey, never let the truth get in away of a good story.....

[Waseley]

Two major factors, the earlier funding settlement under the former Mayor who had zero interest in the deal, and Covid. Khan may or may not have helped the situation, but these are the main reasons.

[Bic Basher]

Considering Khan's fares freeze had very little effect on revenue, I doubt it was that which caused it. Covid saw their main income drop like a stone during nearly two years of lockdowns and working from home.

But there is also the fact that before Covid, bus travelling patterns in Inner London have been changing from going from home to work on the bus to using it as part of an overall journey using rail which offers quicker journeys into Zone 1.

In Outer London where TfL want to focus the bus network on in future, it's still sees decent bus usage and getting the bus from Croydon to Sutton is still a viable option over rail for getting to work on.

What has happened is that Covid along with the government drip-feeding TfL has led to them cutting buses a lot quicker than expected.

[Spartacus]

I love the tweet from Councillor Williams "To be clear this is a choice being forced through by the Conservative Party. They could use the ?500m raised every year from Londoners paying Vehicle Excise Duty to pay for London's roads as happens in the rest of the country rather than forcing bus & tube passengers to fund them" as Southwark Council and TfL seem to have an agenda of reducing private car ownership which would obviously erode this projected ?500 million VED income.

He's almost shooting himself in the foot there.

But let's compare TfL to a private company or a Premier league football team, where if they were in this much "trouble" the blame would be levied at the head and not the shareholders so in my mind, regardless of outside support that's been supplied, the Mayor needs to accept his share of the blame for what's happened during his watch and accept the consequences rather then punishing the users.

[exdulwicher]

But let's compare TfL to a private company or a Premier league football team, where if they were in this much "trouble" the blame would be levied at the head and not the shareholders so in my mind, regardless of outside support that's been supplied, the Mayor needs to accept his share of the blame for what's happened during his watch and accept the consequences rather then punishing the users.

It's not a private company though.

As a public transport authority, TfL gets all its income from fares, commercial activity and income from the Congestion Charge, grants (including business rates) and from borrowing and cash reserves (the latter was left in tatters by the previous Mayor with a deficit of over ?1bn...)

When fares income dried up during Covid there was literally nowhere else to go to get any income other than asking Government for a cash injection (bailout / subsidy, call it whatever depending on your view...)

The Government has given several short-term funding settlements but over the course of 2 years of Covid, various lockdowns, instructions not to travel etc, TfL was left short of about ?9bn and Government funds can't come close to filling that hole. So the funding they have supplied has come with a load of caveats.

"We'll give you ?x million but you need to save ?y million on...."

You can negotiate against some of it (like the proposed cuts to free travel for Under 18's) but some of it is being forced through as a condition of the funding. Doesn't matter who you have as Mayor, that's the deal that Government is offering.

[apbremer]

I read that well over 500 employees of TFL rake in salaries of at least ?100,000 pa. Need more be said?

[DulwichFox]

apbremer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I read that well over 500 employees of TFL rake in

> salaries of at least ?100,000 pa. Need more be

> said?

500 out of 28,000

Rake in ???

A TFL Bus Driver earns on average ?27,973 / yr

DulwichFox

[Waseley]

The ads say earn over 30k but that will include a fair amount of overtime. A tough job and respect.

[jazzer]

That's, ?50 million pounds a year, you know where savings could be made, start looking at TfL. What justifies a salary of ?100K paid by TfL, absolutely nothing, it's plainly ludicrous. No wonder TfL are bust,

apbremer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I read that well over 500 employees of TFL rake in

> salaries of at least ?100,000 pa. Need more be

> said?

[Waseley]

Have a look at all large companies and they will have people on six figure salaries. In fact as the average house in East Dulwich must be a million you'd need to be earning far more than this to get a mortgage. Get real! 😊

[exdulwicher]

That's, ?50 million pounds a year, you know where savings could be made, start looking at TfL. What justifies a salary of ?100K paid by TfL, absolutely nothing, it's plainly ludicrous. No wonder TfL are bust,

People need to be paid for the work they do. I'm assuming you're aware of the going rate for all professions and qualifications?

It might be a wider societal issue but plenty of professions earn (sorry "rake in") 6-figure salaries at the top end. You might not like that but that's the going market rate.

[Rockets]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But let's compare TfL to a private company or a

> Premier league football team, where if they were

> in this much "trouble" the blame would be levied

> at the head and not the shareholders so in my

> mind, regardless of outside support that's been

> supplied, the Mayor needs to accept his share of

> the blame for what's happened during his watch and

> accept the consequences rather then punishing the

> users.

>

> It's not a private company though.

> As a public transport authority, TfL gets all its

> income from fares, commercial activity and income

> from the Congestion Charge, grants (including

> business rates) and from borrowing and cash

> reserves (the latter was left in tatters by the

> previous Mayor with a deficit of over ?1bn...)

>

> When fares income dried up during Covid there was

> literally nowhere else to go to get any income

> other than asking Government for a cash injection

> (bailout / subsidy, call it whatever depending on

> your view...)

>

> The Government has given several short-term

> funding settlements but over the course of 2 years

> of Covid, various lockdowns, instructions not to

> travel etc, TfL was left short of about ?9bn and

> Government funds can't come close to filling that

> hole. So the funding they have supplied has come

> with a load of caveats.

> "We'll give you ?x million but you need to save ?y

> million on...."

>

> You can negotiate against some of it (like the

> proposed cuts to free travel for Under 18's) but

> some of it is being forced through as a condition

> of the funding. Doesn't matter who you have as

> Mayor, that's the deal that Government is

> offering.

But what happened in the 4 years before the pandemic? Granted Covid decimated the cashflow for TFL but they also followed a disastrous path of devoting bus lanes to cycle lanes and creating massive issues for the bus network that has also led to a drop in passenger numbers. You can't pin everything on central government - TFL and the Mayor have to take some responsibility for the mess TFL are in but they won't - the left just doesn't do accountability - never has, never will....it's always someone else's fault.

[exdulwicher]

But what happened in the 4 years before the pandemic?

Bus passenger numbers in London fluctuate between about 2.2 and 2.4 billion journeys a year, small % increases and decreases. The last 5 years have seen a slight decrease although usage is still far higher than a decade ago. Also, there's been a decrease in the number of vehicle miles due to bus route alterations / consolidation of services so that accounts for some of the passenger decrease.

Bus speeds on average dropped slightly 2014 - 2018 before rising again in 2018/19 and then a significant jump in speed 2020 (pandemic - no traffic) and it's largely stayed higher than 2018 since then.

Anything else you want to know?

the left just doesn't do accountability

Ironic isn't it that the right-wing Government we currently have is doing the best job ever in avoiding accountability, scrutiny and responsibility...?

[Rockets]

I meant what was TFL doing to shore up their finances?

Perhaps the Tories have decided to take a leaf out of Labour's playbook and deny everything, take no responsibility for their actions and always blame someone else....

[Waseley]

Apart from attack Southwark GLA and TfL do you have any other opinions Mr/Mrs Rockets? You've posted 100s if not 1000s of times and it appears that 98 percent is along these lines. Sorry to be so confrontational but eventually I had to break.

[Administrator]

Please stay on topic

[CPR Dave]

Yeah stay on topic. The tories haven't run the buses in London since 2016. We are most of the way through the next decade of a Labour run tfl and its an absolute f*****g s**t***w.

It is going to get worse from here too and no amount of complaining about the tories will change that.