Reduced service bus 12

[Bic Basher]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks increasingly as if it is going completely

> along with a lot of other routes. What's the

> justification, are people not using it?

There's various issues here. One is that working habits have changed since Covid with most people working in the office on Tuesday to Thursday while at home on Mondays and Fridays. Another is that passengers in Inner London tend to use the bus for local journeys and short hop trips to rail stations.

Bus demand in Inner London has dropped and while things are returning to normal, usage is still below pre-Covid levels.

The main crux is that before Covid, TfL was able to fund itself through fare revenue and other revenue streams (property rent, advertising) which has tanked since 2020, which has lad to the Department for Transport drip feeding them funding to keep a basic service running, so TfL can't long term plan the future, so as Khan has mentioned, there's a "managed decline" of the inner London bus network, while outer London will see an increase in bus services where there's larger demand for them.

One of the reasons why Oxford Street is now barely served by buses is that the Elizabeth Line will have the capacity to carry those former bus passengers from one end to the other in a much faster time than crawling on a bus.

[Rockets]

I understand the rationale based on reduced inner city numbers but it seems a case of biting your nose to spite your face to cut any services in areas like Dulwich where we are already seeing a reduction in rail services and already poor PTAL scores - this is surely going to make things even worse for anyone trying to get into the city from the area?

Are any of our councillors voicing their concerns about it or fighting TFL over it?

[Waseley]

Cauliflowerear, I found your post rather reactionary, possibly borderline casual racist, and irelevant to the discussion on the number 12 bus. Perhaps I should have said that, but on this occasion the hang them and flog them tone just got to me.

Mr/Mrs Rockets, can you not keep your anti Southwark sentiment to the LTN thread? Not sure why you resort to accusing others you don't agree with as being trolls and ask for them to be banned. I've stopped posting on LTNs as I expect many others who are not adverse to some controls on motor vehicles.

Sorry to others that I am not being more constructive and going off thread. But scroll up and you see my early posts were relevant in this subject.

I remember when the number 12 was a routemaster. Rose tinted specs as they were very out if date. I didn't mind riding on the bendy buses, but they were just wrong for our street network.

Ultimately it was the deal that the previous Mayor agreed on funding DfT that screwed TfL up. He had no interest in the detail and was easily hoodwinked by DfT. Not a myth but as told to me by one of the DfT officials at the time.

[Bic Basher]

Remember that it's the current government who wanted TfL to be self sufficient and for a while it worked, but Covid ruined TfL's revenue stream overnight.

TfL being a public body goes against everything the Tories stand for. They have no issue giving billions to the private company railway TOCs to operate the mess that is the national rail network, but TfL which has actually done positive work in getting people back on public transport up to 2020 keeps getting drip-feed funding.

[Rockets]

Waseley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cauliflowerear, I found your post rather

> reactionary, possibly borderline casual racist,

> and irelevant to the discussion on the number 12

> bus. Perhaps I should have said that, but on this

> occasion the hang them and flog them tone just got

> to me.

>

> Mr/Mrs Rockets, can you not keep your anti

> Southwark sentiment to the LTN thread? Not sure

> why you resort to accusing others you don't agree

> with as being trolls and ask for them to be

> banned. I've stopped posting on LTNs as I expect

> many others who are not adverse to some controls

> on motor vehicles.

>

> Sorry to others that I am not being more

> constructive and going off thread. But scroll up

> and you see my early posts were relevant in this

> subject.

>

> I remember when the number 12 was a routemaster.

> Rose tinted specs as they were very out if date.

> I didn't mind riding on the bendy buses, but they

> were just wrong for our street network.

>

> Ultimately it was the deal that the previous Mayor

> agreed on funding DfT that screwed TfL up. He had

> no interest in the detail and was easily

> hoodwinked by DfT. Not a myth but as told to me

> by one of the DfT officials at the time.

Waseley - merely posing the question whether any of the local councillors are fighting to retain the bus service....not sure that is anti-Southwark just a perfectly reasonable question is it not? Isn't that what local councillors do? Surely the removal of that service will affect constituents in the wards?

At the end of the day everyone is going to point political fingers and try to blame each other on the mess TFL finds itself in but, again, it is local residents who feel the fall out. Unfortunately TFL is a political football being kicked hard by both sides of the political divide for their own selfish purposes, which will also likely dictate how hard local councillors fight to retain the services.

[Jenijenjen]

I?m confident our councillors are fighting as hard as they can to retain the bus route given their limited powers in the face of TFL and the juggernaut of a Tory government who are withholding the necessary funding. To suggest that if our councillors fight hard enough they will be able to retain the service is either extraordinarily naive or mischief making.

[Nigello]

Troll or not, antisocial behaviour on buses by all sorts of people is a problem and does deter people from using buses and trains. I don?t think it?s right to pretend it doesn?t happen and ignore realities. It happens everywhere, not just Peckham and it does annoy and even unnerve or frighten passengers or would-be passengers so don?t underestimate its pernicious effects.

[heartblock]

I haven't seen anything on Twitter or any other medium from any of my local Councillors about bus service reduction, I have seen lot's of communications about how Wonderful the Council is and pictures of councillors pointing at social housing they are building (which turns out to not be social housing) and how they were victorious against their own residents on Croxted and ED Grove.

Here is Medact's take on buses

Increasing publicly owned zero-carbon public transport is key to a Green New Deal that reduces

air pollution, improves public health and reduces inequality. Bringing buses back into public ownership in cities like Reading has enabled money to be recycled into the community, improving services

and the local environment.

You can read the whole excellent document of REAL Green policy rather than Southwark's Greewashing policy of demolition, building on green spaces and the other 'thing' here:

https://stat.medact.org/uploads/2021/04/The-public-health-case-for-a-Green-New-Deal-MEDACT-April-2021.pdf

[Waseley]

I worked in related sectors and in deed those areas where local government runs the service either as the majority shareholder or through a franchise system like TfL which other metropolitan areas are now moving to improved services and patronage, very different to the rest of the country. Thatcher saw buses as poor people's transport. Livingstone got the ball rolling and although promised conductors and cutting fares much further, Oyster and the then fixed pound for any length of journey was revolutionary. Sadly costly to change to a zero emission fleet and money is no longer therein London.

I spent time at Reading buses, where they colour code routes and improved comfort, and shifted to natural gas which is cleaner. Even had a drive around the car park in a bus. Nottingham, York and Bristol were other faves.

Behaviour on buses is of course an issue worthy of separate adult conversations but I don't see how sweeping statements help. And every generation has its issues. I expect the same was said of Teddy Boys slashing seats in the 50s. Particularly after national service ended. (Edited, think I was taken in by a facetious post.....)

[KalamityKel]

I think it's more than a mere "reduction" to the service... See attached.

[Spartacus]

Thanks Kel

That's a kick in the Teeth for the area and residents along Barry Road who depend on the 12 to get to work.

[Nigello]

Perhaps emails to our MP are needed -

writetothem will give you the address and requirements (eg. putting down all personal information to ensure a response).

[Spartacus]

Plus the councillors Rose (responsible for making bus journeys faster) and Williams (leader) to ask what they are doing ?

[Clifton]

It'll be sad to lose the no 12, as it's been around for a long time, but otherwise the proposed change should have more or less no impact for people in ED. The 148 will be extended southwards to cover the 12 route to Dulwich Library. The effect on frequency is unclear, but as the purpose appears to be to remove excess capacity on Walworth Road, it may well be that there's no effect south of Camberwell Green.

https://www.cityam.com/here-are-the-bus-routes-set-for-change-cancellation-amid-tfl-cuts/

(Follow the Walworth Road link.)

[jazzer]

Yep, it sure has, over 60+ years

Your link does not work.

[Spartacus]

Consultation here

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/busreview

There is proposal to reroute the 148 to cover the Camberwell Green, Peckham, Rye Lane, Barry Road sections but it does remove the ability to get to Oxford Circus as a change would be needed at Parliament Square.

[staplemeg]

Oh no, losing the 12 would awful. It?s such a key route into the city. Changing at Elephant would add time onto an already long journey :(

[jazzer]

Below I have attempted to pick out bus routes which will most affect SE15, SE22 and SE23, please read and share.

This is something I feel cross party and borough councillors from both Southwark and Lewisham need to work together on.

Don't forget TfL's motto "Every journey matters", it sure don't feel like that from these proposals that not only include losing the No. 12 bus service but also the 78.

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/busreview

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/busreview

https://www.cityam.com/here-are-the-bus-routes-set-for-change-cancellation-amid-tfl-cuts/

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/6eb6f11bfda6c31ac582aa3cc17803c4bce13491/original/1653921753/21c135cf4fe67b7b365b106b6c61ab7b_Central_London_bus_review_poster.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112242Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=3305388da47f5363bd11e2912cf4b4861068e1f2c9da7d316c0dc0e3905b538b

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/6a01071760d1114071a7681443cb07ea7ffd8351/original/1654002445/1154416a347de367780e0accb0e145cb_South_London_at_night.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112308Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=90c391e8f630552dce3c8698b38e74f0fbff8a406a214e220638974b4de1d33b

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/7643d5bfa5153ae15f933ca35a158b55b791639f/original/1653996945/91947e35b313fbbac96a9121cdabf8fd_1-coldharbour-lane_%281%29.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112250Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=c1a69c738b6a192e20ae7a23bc5fb94dc2397c6665b68a8c6523ae3e0ae91b32

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/8297d5df7a3618dfcba1f3b613a97f0e9b917bfc/original/1654012428/25b34fd4c652b79d8865d25be776a3ed_3-_Walworth_Road.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112254Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ff4581cf7dc8bd11e51aa9fe66dc3f024f11ec3695f7dd869d8f09e90a72c97c

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/8297d5df7a3618dfcba1f3b613a97f0e9b917bfc/original/1654012428/25b34fd4c652b79d8865d25be776a3ed_3-_Walworth_Road.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112254Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ff4581cf7dc8bd11e51aa9fe66dc3f024f11ec3695f7dd869d8f09e90a72c97c

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/04cd6cb004576a60d7322e6767d2619b8401fd1a/original/1653997005/b259a7d10ce094b53b319c2750dead60_4-waterloo.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112258Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=0618c35e99804951138339f6b40704837d7e34b5865622c734909eaad037f2ea

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/94e774872eab9dca108214bcde78d1fca03a31cf/original/1653997101/69e06d141ed0454ad9b3bbabae49e31e_5-london-bridge-and-tower-bridge.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220601%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220601T112303Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ffc28ef0fd3040d99fa73c9826d03d0065cb68b7dc85513f7c7664e601345e6c

Routes 1 (Tottenham Court Road-Canada Water) and 168 (Hampstead Heath-Old Kent Road) would be axed, although a new route would run from Hampstead Heath to Canada Water using most of the 1 and 168 routeing would be introduced. The new route is 'provisionally numbered' 1 but its actual number will be defined after the consultation

Route 188 (Russell Square-North Greenwich) would be changed to start from Tottenham Court Road instead of Russell Square

[Bic Basher]

Clifton Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It'll be sad to lose the no 12, as it's been

> around for a long time, but otherwise the proposed

> change should have more or less no impact for

> people in ED. The 148 will be extended southwards

> to cover the 12 route to Dulwich Library. The

> effect on frequency is unclear, but as the purpose

> appears to be to remove excess capacity on

> Walworth Road, it may well be that there's no

> effect south of Camberwell Green.

>

> https://www.cityam.com/here-are-the-bus-routes-set

> -for-change-cancellation-amid-tfl-cuts/

>

> (Follow the Walworth Road link.)

The 148 would operate every 12 minutes as the 12 does now. According to the consultation, there will be a same stop change at the Elephant to get the 453 onto Oxford Circus.

[Waseley]

I've used the buses for decades and often prefer them to faster public transport. Most only use them for short hops as opposed tone eg Vauxhall Bridge Road in 185. No doubt that is included in the analysis and consultation. Just at Peckham Rye in Overground and getting off at Denmark Hill as service may be marginally better. Ps went on a Boris Bus yesterday, far more vibrations than the average hybrid and doesn't seem to go in pure electric mode. Not great use of London money former Mayor/PM

[Spartacus]

Waseley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've used the buses for decades and often prefer

> them to faster public transport. Most only use

> them for short hops as opposed tone eg Vauxhall

> Bridge Road in 185. No doubt that is included in

> the analysis and consultation. Just at Peckham

> Rye in Overground and getting off at Denmark Hill

> as service may be marginally better. Ps went on a

> Boris Bus yesterday, far more vibrations than the

> average hybrid and doesn't seem to go in pure

> electric mode. Not great use of London money

> former Mayor/PM

I'm struggling to see your point here

[Nigello]

The 453 goes to Oxford Circus and up Regent St north. Another route, if you are near the northern end of Barry, is the 63 or 363 to Elephant then a change to 453.

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Consultation here

> https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/busreview

>

> There is proposal to reroute the 148 to cover the

> Camberwell Green, Peckham, Rye Lane, Barry Road

> sections but it does remove the ability to get to

> Oxford Circus as a change would be needed at

> Parliament Square.

[Spartacus]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The 453 goes to Oxford Circus and up Regent St

> north. Another route, if you are near the northern

> end of Barry, is the 63 or 363 to Elephant then a

> change to 453.

>

> Spartacus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Consultation here

> > https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/busreview

> >

> > There is proposal to reroute the 148 to cover

> the

> > Camberwell Green, Peckham, Rye Lane, Barry Road

> > sections but it does remove the ability to get

> to

> > Oxford Circus as a change would be needed at

> > Parliament Square.

That's the point Nigelo, you have to change rather than a direct bus to Oxford Circus

We all know how busy the elephant interchsnge can be so it just makes it more awkward for a lot of people.

[exdulwicher]

Ps went on a Boris Bus yesterday, far more vibrations than the average hybrid and doesn't seem to go in pure electric mode. Not great use of London money former Mayor/PM

Did it lie about where it was going to? 😂

There's a good Twitter thread here on what's going on with the bus cuts and, to a certain extent, the consultations:

[Mabaker]

If you live near Barry Rd that leaves just one bus route, 197 only goes as far as Peckham so not much good if you're going into city centre. The 12 route is a main route much used to get into the West End. Try getting on one going home during rush hour. Will other bus routes like the 176 lay on more frequent journey's? I think not. Once again TFL making cuts at the expense of travellers in the South East