Bookstall in ED Warehouse Closing (Lounged)

[Moos]

Zzz... so - you're free to say what you like but we aren't free to point out that we don't agree with you?

There is such a thing as self-censorship. I'm exercising it right now.

[????]

er, I was pointing out I didn't agree with the consensus and have been slagged off for it, no skin off my nose but look through Moos and try and justify anything in your last post, I suspect you won't bother, so I'll remind you

"Bang on - I don't see any need to come stomping in simply to be unkind, and 'it's a free country' is rather puerile as a defence"

looks like self appointed censorship not disagreement to me

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Moos]

Sigh.

I certainly don't think you can't speak your mind. I have no means of censoring your posts and wouldn't if I could. But I disagree with your choosing to use a thread announcing the closure of a local business to make unkind predictions about the closure of its neighbours, and I chose to say so.

[????]

Read through this thread - where did you tell me that? You have now, you didn't earlier you just told me to shut up...there's a difference between what you think and what you post BTW

[Moos]

OK, I see your point, and thank you - I did think I was saying it earlier, but next time I will try to be clearer.

[????]

Thank you - and I may be forthright in my opinion and come over as opinionated but I don't think I've personally insulted anyone on this forum and yet I'm fair game to be personally insulted by the likes of Pongo and others (to applause) for taking a contrary view on issues....this doesn't bother but the hypocracy makes me laugh ........the "everyone's civil on here...oh unless 'we' disagree with you.

[citizenED]

Bully for you Quids - I remember some time back on another thread that you suggested that the Indoor Market would not last long. I recall it and others might have too. I guess what people are saying is why come on and brag about the veracity of your prediction. I know you started on this thread by saying you were sorry that the bookshop had failed, but then you went and made a prediction about further closures in the Market. Rings a little bit like celebrating bad news.

[????]

Where did I say "As I rightly predicted"?.....sorry for having an opionion Citizen, maybe I'll make someone whose thinking about opening up there think a bit harder about it......not neccessarily a bad thing. It is a bit like a bleedin' vicar's tea party on here on occasions where everything in the Garden of East Dulwich is wonderful and woe betide anyone who draes to point out that's not necessarily true.

PS I think the housing markets had it foer a while in SE22 too

STONE HIM

[karter]

Quids, careful or you will be stoned. or are you stoned already ? :)

[SeanMacGabhann]

where to begin? This post isn't going to be about the Warehouse so feel free to Lounge Administrator

???? - you are beginning to sound ever more hostile and troll-like with every visit. You have posted long enough and frequently enough to paint a picture of an intelligent guy - albeit very embittered about something. I have no idea what but frankly at this point I could care. You would think that someone who posts as relatively regularly could find something positive to say ONCE in a freakin' while, but not you. And then when people turn on you you get all defensive and passive-aggressive. So..

Where is the personal insult to you? Calling you mean-spirited doesn't count.. that's not insulting just factually descriptive. But on the subject of insults:

Do I find that insulting? yeah.. but I'll live. But let;s not pretend that you don't stoop to insults

Horseshit - the consensus is what it is. You think that the Warehouse isn't commercially viable - most of the people who expressed an opinion on the same subject (including myself) TEND to agree with that point. We agree, FFS. Stop looking for conflict where there isn't any

Because yes, the voice of censorship is always prone to politeness viz: "I don't see the need to". It;s a suggestion... think about it before you call it the voice of censorship

Why - why keep repeating this? You think you are the only one on here who gets disagreed with? If, everytime someone disagreed with me I started a post with "this is a forum I'm allowed to voice my opinion" I would shoot myself. It's a forum, no-one is stopping you doing anything - they just disagree with you. Deal with it

People have been disagreeing with you civilly. Until now I hope.

You clearly have the capacity to engage in intelligent debate. People don't have to agree but MY problem with you is you REVEL in the conflict. You rarely, if ever, engage with anyone when there is common ground. You delight in stirring shite.

You love teasing people about being "nice" and "stepford" and the pretending that the forum is hypocrytical. I've sent you a couple of PM's personally asking you along to the next drinks and you have blanked me. Which is fair enough - entirely your perogative. But don't give it the large "you all only PRETEND to be nice" when all you are here for is aggro

Grow up

[Asset]

I think quids is getting an unnecessarily hard time and it's all getting blown out of proportion. It's an opinion that was expressed and I think you should all stop it now as it's getting out of hand. There have been some pretty nasty comments thrown his way. So what if he's got a bit of an attitude - he's by no means the only person on this forum to have one.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I think that is the combined corrosive drip-drip-drip of negativity as much as what has been said in this thread.

I fr one will be sad to see the bok-stall go and wish the Warehouse well.

[Jamma]

I think quids is making a fairly valid point about the warehouse. It was controversial when it opened remember, many Zenoria residents were dead set against it. If they've been put through stress and inconvenience only for the thing to fold that seems a point worth making. Plus of course it may well prove the canary in the East Dulwich economic mine. Or is it a unique case with unique problems?

So take up quids on that issue rather than firing into him/her for being negative. There are a few people who seem to think that because they post a lot on here they have some sort of ownership of the forum, what can or should be said on here. The internet ain't like that. Whether you post once or a kjillion times we all have as much right to be here and to post.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Safe to assume that's at least partly aimed at me. Obviously I'll disagree with it. But your initial point about quids making a valid point is correct. And as I've said already it's a point I share (to a certain extent anyway) - so I'm not having a go at anyone for making any kind of point

There is one person who can claim ownership of the forum an it ain't me. And patronising me with stuff like "Whether you post once or a kjillion times we all have as much right to be here and to post." doesn't endear one.

No-one I'm aware of is suggesting anyone NOT post. Let's be clear.. one person took particular time out to berate a whole series of posters for being automatons who can't see any bad news- none of those targeted took a defensive "but it's the internet! I have a right to post" stance - they kind of have a grown up attitude to the world - they post, people will disagree, they will disagree back etc

But I took particular issue with quids's series of posts not because of his basic point about the warehouse - but for his unremitting negativity not just in this thread but in almost everyone since he joined. And a slow build-up of that negativity led me to post what I did

As a basic right he is perfectly entitled to do that. I'm not going to suggest anyone stop him or anyone else. But wether in real life or on the internet, no-one has a "right "to be a boor. Be one if you like but don't get upset if people call you on it.

[Moos]

I'm not sure whether Jamma's point was aimed at me but I hope not. As far as I'm concerned ???? and I had a disagreement, which ended in a civil way. I still don't agree with what he posted and where, and I expect he doesn't agree with me either, but we're done, and I don't see the point of our repeating ourselves once again.

[citizenED]

Is not much of this is a question of style over content. It's not what is said so much as how it is said. Quids has made lots of points that people agree with (look at response to the comments on the BNP thread) but sometimes the way things are couched is rubbing some up the wrong way.

Think there is an issue about the perceived existence of an "inner circle" on here. A kind of Editorial stance as if the forum is a newspaper. It's not. The accusation has been made several times. Seems a pity that some are lost to the forum because of this but have no idea how to combat it.

[Asset]

I've just read back over quite a few of quids posts and I don't see a particular negativity, at least no more than other people. There is a bit of a dour attitude but maybe he's just Scottish

[BJL]

Poor old misunderstood ?4...

He actually isn't always full of negativity. The thought that ED might get yet another place for him to gamble his money away in seems to fill him with something close to happiness.

[tog_in_sox]

Ahem...

As some of you readjust your askew rose-tinted spectacles and perhaps others resume the positive/funereal music playing through your media players I'd like to suggest that were this thread to be referred to an arbiter that we might just see a verdict of "cyber-bullying" going on here.

Perhaps it was the full moon this weekend, it certainly played havoc with my days, not least of which getting mauled by my lady's cat. Can we put aside all the name calling and derogatory words and simply have it registered with "ayes" and "nays" as to the support or success of the Warehouse?

This is a "forum" for the advancement of all views barring those that infringe the rules of the board or common decency but to resort to digs and slants simply does the participants no credit and demeans their value as informative contributors.

I joined this board in the early belief that it was a useful networking device for people in the environs but it seems that it is showing a partisan underbelly that makes it less welcoming and unsavoury. Too much time and perhaps a few with some history?

Good wishes to all and let's all talk about taxpayers' money being spent on bonds for banks...

[mockney piers]

Sorry to hear that UC, though you had made some noises about trying something else, so I'm not entirely surprised.

Good luck in whatever job or retraining you decide to opt for.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Support The Warehouse? Aye

Likely Success of Warehouse? Harder to be binary on this one. Strong possibility of "Nay" but hopefully "aye"

(although there have been several other threads on the warehouse itself and wether people like it or not)

My feeling was that one of the pioneers in the warehouse announced he wasn't able to continue and I thought that was an occassion to commiserate rather than ressurect the whole warehouse "thing" again. I was hoping to leave this thread lie but as someone has thrown a "bullying" accusation into the mix...

tog_in_soz: can I reasonably assume you believe quids to be the bullied and me to be the bully (or maybe one of several bullies?) Well this means I either am a bully (and as I have no wish to be one I would love a better explanation of why exactly I fit the category and what I could do to atone) or I'm not a bully and someone who on the face of it suggests arbitration has slyly got a few digs in before suggesting everyone move on? If it's the latter case then, as Lebowski says - "this aggression will not stand. maaan."

What does seem ironic is that several people seem to think that "this is a public forum you know - people can say what they like" is a useful way of telling other people to be quiet. Ie - as soon as quids was shouted down for being negative there was a backlash where people said "free speech!!! now shut up and leave him alone"

I re-read the thread after seeing Asset's comments and have mixed feelings. Taken on it's own merits (ie this thread alone) there is an arguable case to be made. But apart from having "form" here was a case of: as well as being the first poster on the thread to focus on other's misfortune ("first of many is my verdict") he wasted no time in posting a follow up comment on the reasons why. And his analysis is probably not too far wrong and may prove 100% correct. But the arguments are old and have other threads dedicated to them. Again - this seemed to me like a different kind of thread. Still.. so far so normal

What happened next is that people picked up on this negativity and the first punch was thrown by quids with his "I'll leave you in La Di la Stepford SE22".

Once again (before it's pointed out YET again) it's a public forum and people can post what they want - but there is no doubting the hosility contained in the sentiment. Where does it come from?

A bit of the usual Sean/quids banter followed but then it's not long before the baseless accusations start - "Not a free forum clearly.......or in some posters mind" - if someone is going to say they are being censored they need to have a bit more of a case. To take a fictitious example - If my junkie brother dies of an OD and at the funeral someone says "to be fair he was a junkie and it was more than likely to happen" - the remark might be factually correct but the lack of tact, motive and remorse make it highly dubious. If I were tothen get upset with that person only for them to give it the "it's a free country - I can say what I like" - well again, that person would be right.... but I wouldn't be censoring them by telling them to..... err.. be quiet

"But Sean it's an internet forum, not a funeral"

Does that relieve anyone of their right to have a bit of suss? Maybe people think it does.... I'm open to opinions either way and why

to take a final point : "it is showing a partisan underbelly that makes it less welcoming and unsavoury."

partisan underbelly is quite an emotive phrase isn't it? Partisan in what sense? What is the divide and who are the people on either side of it? It's a genuine question btw -

[mockney piers]

I've been on many forums and I've left many forums.

On the whole I leave because of a tendency to troll, flame and a general lack of decorum.

I've liked it here, I've liked the humour and the banter and the range of opinion.

We've been through the whole censorship and bullying thing before and it still doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

On this thread some people found a certain attitude distasteful and expressed that opinion. They did not attempt to censor, merely took umbrage in someone's thinly disguised and rather insistent schadenfreude. I'm rather ambivalent towards quids who annoys and impresses me with equal measure, but have found him to often be supercilious and patronising, hardly an attitude to endear oneself to anyone.

That's as may be and entirely his prerogative, but it does seem out of kilter in someone who is so comfortable in their own opinions to leap about shouting 'help help I'm being oppressed'.

Clamour all you want for the end to the oppression of those with 'too much time' who are sneered at so often; it's misdirection; try to concentrate and contribute to the continuance of this resource as one that is a useful and enjoyable asset to life locally.

And frankly, careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Surely if somebody makes comments that are bound to cause offence, then they shouldn't be surprised when that offence is reflected in subsequent posts? This isnt an attempt to censor but to redress the balance.

Bullying? Who is the bully? The person who causes offence in the expectation that nobody will respond because of a wish to avoid conflict, or the person who responds assertively?

Who bullies the bully? as Aescolus said.

[Brendan]

Come on folks, life?s too short.

Anyone can come on here and say what they will but just remember this is a community forum and the folks on here are your neighbours, the people you share the bus with, the people in the pub etc. They are what make up the community that you have chosen to live in.

[Ultraconsultancy]

Too true, Brendan. Let's not fall out. I just wanted to flag up our departure.

Thanks for the good wishes, and for the friendly time we've had; I made friends in ED before we opened and will continue to after we've gone, I'm sure.

A combined career of Dad-hood and trainee therapist beckons...