Extinction Rebellion to camp on Peckham Rye park for 2 weeks

[Mabaker]

Agree with everything Sue says. For some people XR will never be seen to do the right thing. If they have camped without permission, they fall foul of the "rules are rules" camp. If in deed they did get permission from the Council, some people are still complaining about that. And what's all this nonsense about tyre slashing? I'm sure people's nearby cars will be quite safe.

[richard tudor]

Huggers Wrote:

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> As I understand it via my own secret sources, the

> council have been negotiating with them to use

> this space for quite a while and it is

> unofficially official.They have promised to leave

> no trace.it?s not ?their cause?, it?s all ?our

> cause?, whether you like the tactics or not.

Perhaps the Cllrs might like to throw some light on how true this is.

[Rockets]

I actually think XR do more harm than good - they turn people off the climate debate by their ludicrous protests - they seem to live in an alternate universe where there is a simple answer to everything - and they have scored more own goals in their short existence which has actually made them a bit of a laughing stock (Emma Thompson takes pride of place in that one followed closely by the one who superglued himself to an electric train) - some of them don't actually seem to know what they are protesting for/against and many seem to come from very privileged backgrounds (seemingly Oxfordshire seems to be the breeding ground for them!).

In the same way Swampy created a negative perception of environmental protestors XR are doing the same and it seems even Sadiq agrees....

Speaking to the Local Democracy Reporting Service, Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said the actions of Extinction Rebellion protesters could ?discourage? others from joining the fight against climate change.

Mr Khan said: ?One of the things that those who feel passionately about [climate change] have to do is to win over public opinion at the same time as putting pressure on the Government.

?My concern is some of the actions of XR discourage people from joining the campaign and don?t affect Government policy. I think all campaigning, protests, should be peaceful, lawful and safe, and I?m concerned that some of the tactics being used are counterproductive.?

It is clear Southwark should not be allowing them to camp on Peckham Rye and should be doing their utmost to disperse them. Why should the council be supporting groups of protestors who are travelling to London who are coming here to cause havoc in London via illegal activities for a week and make Londoners' lives a misery to make a point that everyone already gets?

[hpsaucey]

Sue's right - we're contemplating an existential threat as a species. Some people including some EDFers will continue along the 'Don't Look Up' path, This book's interesting for anyone wondering about humanity's difficulty facing up to the threat:

https://southwark.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/WPAC/BIBENQ/437740099/71467036,1

HP

[first mate]

I seem to recall in one case they would not let someone through who was on their way to be with an elderly parent in hospital. The person was completely distraught. I do not feel comfortable with that.

[Rockets]

Yes but some of us can acknowledge the need for action against the existential threat to our species without the need to go and break the law, cause massive disruption to innocent people or superglue ourselves to electric trains - I think that's called intellectual evolution! ;-)

[hpsaucey]

Rockets Wrote:

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> Yes but some of us can acknowledge the need for

> action against the existential threat to our

> species without the need to go and break the law,

> cause massive disruption to innocent people or

> superglue ourselves to electric trains - I think

> that's called intellectual evolution! ;-)

And are those acknowledging the need acting enough/ pressuring the government enough?

Re: ' I think that's called intellectual evolution' - ironically the book I linked to above may suggest otherwise.

HP

[Mabaker]

Well Rockets, guess you didn't agree with the suffragettes then. If it wasn't for groups like XR and all those pressure groups that went before,the problems of climate change would be well down Government's "to do" list.

[yeknomyeknom]

If you support XR then I know even a little can help. Bringing campers flasks of tea, baked goods etc is always much appreciated, especially in the mornings. I think it?s a nice way to show your support if you can?t be more active.

[heartblock]

Suffragist Millicent Garrett Fawcett, believed that non-violent campaigning would lead to constitutional change. Mainly upper-middle class 'respectable' women campaigning through petitions and the lobbying of MPs.

Six years later - no vote so...came the suffragettes..a number of women across the country became frustrated with Fawcett's moderate campaigning style.

Emmeline Pankhurst, who had been a member of the Manchester suffragist group, believed it was time for direct action by working-class women who would use any means necessary to secure the vote. "Deeds not words" - the motto of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) she created in 1903 - summed up their tactic of demanding, not asking, for their rights.

None of us want our lives disturbed...I have tea booked at the Royal Lancaster tomorrow, so a demo in Hyde Park will be very annoying if it prevents me from getting there...on the other hand .....Climate Change, famine and mass movement of displaced people.

[KidKruger]

Wot Sue said.

+ XR aren?t going to change anything, but as we burn/drown/starve/fight wars over diminished dry land or resources, those protestors will at least know THEY fought tooth and nail to force change, after their predecessors exhausted all reasonable and legal approaches to getting focus and change on these matters.

The ?ooh, but they?re inconveniencing people? chant is a narrow view which does not appreciate efforts already undergone (and the brick wall they?ve been met with).

Our whole model is bent and they?re doing their bit to try and fix it before it?s too late.

Our Govts should be fighting this fight on behalf of all people.

[first mate]

If it is a matter of only inconveniencing people then okay but once you stop people going to a relative in hospital I think a line begins to be crossed. I thinks the latter risks spilling over into doing harm.

[legalalien]

I think the jury?s out on whether the suffragettes helped or hindered the cause of women?s suffrage in the U.K. I would have been on Team Fawcett, no doubt.

[Nigello]

Mabaker Wrote:

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> Well Rockets, guess you didn't agree with the

> suffragettes then. If it wasn't for groups like XR

> and all those pressure groups that went before,the

> problems of climate change would be well down

> Government's "to do" list.

ANother way of helping would be to ditch your pet, your car, have only one child, etc. etc. but that is seen as maybe too radical, yet we have folk on here saying how much like the like and support the (very radical, at least in terms of intervention and direct action) XR. So, which one of you will do any of the above to really follow through on your flask-of-hot-tea boosterism?

[Rockets]

Didn't the suffragettes suspend disruption activities during the First World War and put their efforts towards aiding the war effort and that was the thing that actually swung public opinion in their favour and then got them the political leverage for change?

I think this is the point many of us (and Sadiq) are making - XR is a fringe group that uses illegal methods that are harming the cause and discussion not helping it. The court of public opinion is clearing against XR and their various splinter groups and I suspect as they ramp their disruption activities this week from Base Camp Rye so they will do even more harm. If you think supporting them is somehow going to make any positive progress good luck to you.

[hpsaucey]

Rockets Wrote:

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> Didn't the suffragettes suspend disruption

> activities during the First World War and put

> their efforts towards aiding the war effort and

> that was the thing that actually swung public

> opinion in their favour and then got them the

> political leverage for change?

> Whilst some historians have argued that it is a VERY partial view of the story. There are plenty of historical analyses that give a far more rounded picture of the various influences that worked both for and against women getting the vote over a period of time from the late C19th onwards and on the impact of social protest in general.

HP

[Sazzle30]

My issue with XR is they offer no solutions to the climate crisis just carry out their civil disobedience. Be great if they offered some ideas of what can be done. Have a relative active in the group and when I ask it?s all about having a peoples assembly to decide on action which will get us nowhere.

Not sure what the solution is as mankind is hardly going to give up breeding, driving and having international holidays

[Waseley]

Yes but we can breed less, drive less and travel less. A bit of a defeatest post. In a generation' time your grandkids will ask where were you when we could have tackled climate change?

[Jenijenjen]

A large reason why women were denied the vote for so long was Asquith, Liberal Prime Minister 1908 to 1916 was set against it as he reasoned that the women who would initially be awarded the vote, would be from the middle classes and more likely to vote Tory. Suffragettes gained a lot of sympathy through their actions not least for the cruel practice of force feeding and the horrifying health conditions that could result and the mental cruelty of the Cat and Mouse Act. So no, it wasn?t a case of the suffragists playing ball during WWI being given the vote as a reward though it was a huge opportunity for women to show how capable they are.

I?m not sure the Court of Public Opinion are against X R, posts on this thread show otherwise.

[Rockets]

But HP it is an important part of the story that public opinion swung in their favour and they actually achieved their aims when they focussed on supporting the country's war efforts rather than a campaign of disruption. One wonders when the penny might drop for XR that disruption is not actually getting them anywhere....

I also wonder how many of the XR groups campaigning for no more fossil fuels were, or would have been, part of the groups campaigning for no nuclear in the 1980s or part of the protests around nuclear expansion about 10 years ago...that's partially what got us into this mess.....hindsight hey....

It seems many of their members love a protest but offer little in the way of solutions.....

[hpsaucey]

Rockets Wrote:

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> But HP it is an important part of the story that

> public opinion swung in their favour and they

> actually achieved their aims when they focussed on

> supporting the country's war efforts rather than a

> campaign of disruption. One wonders when the penny

> might drop for XR that disruption is not actually

> getting them anywhere....

>

.

Rockets - re: women gaining the vote - you stick to that one particular facet of your very narrow analysis all you want... I don't suppose anything I or other say would change your mind.

HP (PhD in the social history of crime and protest)

[Rockets]

But the suffragettes' shift to a more collaborative approach was part of affecting change wasn't it?

It might be one facet but it is a very important one and that is the point I am trying to make in relation to XR.

P.S. Congrats on your PHD by the way!

[Penguin68]

Extinction Rebellion are not a 'green' movement per se, but are (as are Black Lives Matter in the UK) an avowedly anti-capitalist movement using disruption and civil disobedience (which often itself actually causes ecological damage and has distinct 'carbon costs') to publicise protest without actually suggesting viable alternatives which could be delivered effectively within the UK economy. They are spoiled children throwing their toys out of the pram. Their avowed 'ends' may be crowd pleasers, but they offer no real route to those ends. Their stunts are costly and are more likely to put-off those not wed to their tactics rather than persuade.

Far more impressive are those who actually live a genuine low carbon life which could be adopted economically by others. Causing traffic jams and vandalising stuff which will then need repair ain't that.

[Mabaker]

One good thing is that XR once again has us all debating climate change. What has XR ever done to offer solutions you may ask, but highlighting the problems, like all governments' failure to cut fossil fuels, and calling for quicker action on renewables is one example. I'm sure that XR has been successful in nudging the Government in the right direction, although it is still going far too slowly. The fuel poverty crisis we are going through now is made worse by the Government's end to its insulation program, which just shows how timely and relevant Insulate Britain's campaign has been.

I do believe we can all do something to help. Little changes made by us do have an impact. We can reduce meat consumption, plant trees or hedges and pull up the concrete if we are lucky enough to have a garden. For those of us with more cash resources, fit solar panels, buy an electric car if you need one. For those of us without the resources, governments have a huge role to play. Invest in good public transport infrastructure so that we dont need to drive so much. Invest in a program of insulation for social housing. Lets all think about how we can help..

[first mate]

Not sure we are debating though? I think we are disagreeing about how effective XR type direct actions are.

Do agree with much of your second para though