How can we stop this madness of tree felling in residential streets?

[Thunderblue600]

UPDATED 12th April

I feel reassured by the response of Philip Barwell, (Senior Arboricultural Officer, London Borough of Southwark) Well at least I now don't need to consider chaining myself to the tree on the 14th April!

From: Barwell, Philip

Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 at 08:34

Subject: FW: Tree Removal Notice Ref Buchan Road 1315970 & Buchan Rd Tree Stump

Cc: Trees

Dear Michael Peacock

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding the Maple that is due to be removed in Buchan Road.

I can confirm that the tree has been implicated as the cause of subsidence damage to two neighbouring properties.

The tree was initially crown reduced in relation to the first claim for damage that was received in February 2019, however following receipt of a second claim for a different property it was clear that these works had been ineffectual in further preventing any ongoing damage.

As with all insurance claims that the council receives for tree related subsidence damage, we require a set of level of evidence to be provided that demonstrates that the tree is the cause any alleged damage.

We believe in both cases that the evidential thresholds that are set out in the London Tree Officer?s Association Risk Limitation strategy to have been met.

There are plans to remove the tree stump that is further along Buchan Road and replant during the 2022/23 planting season that falls between November and March.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions.

Kind regards

Phil Barwell, Senior Arboricultural Officer

London Borough of Southwark, Environment and Social Regeneration

Parks & Leisure, Third Floor 160, Tooley Street, SE1 2QH

0207 525 5442

[email protected]

UPDATED 8th April 2022 I can confirm about this particular tree:

1) The owner of the house directly opposite the tree has confirmed that he had not contacted the council and did not have any issues with the tree.

2) The owner of the next house confirmed 'my dad did contact the council in 2013 about this tree.' Also 'the leaves in the autumn are a nuisance.'

3) The tree roots have not impacted in any way on the pavement surface.

4) On Monday 11th April I will be contacting Southwark Council to seek more information.

How can we stop this madness of tree felling in residential streets? This morning walking down my street in Buchan Rd Nunhead to visit my lovely neighbour Valerie, I was HORRIFIED to see a demolition notice attached to a beautiful tree.

Reason for tree removal scheduled for April 14th 'Insurance Mitigation'

This will soon become an ugly stump same as another in our street, which I have been informed was removed on the basis of 'a neighbour complained.'

I am hopping mad about this, we should treasure every tree, not be chopping them down, if anything more trees should be planted in residential streets.

Southwark Council why not chop all the trees down in Buchan Rd AND Kimberley Avenue, well to be on the safe side for fear of any neighbours complaining just chop all residential street trees down in the entire borough.

Short of chaining myself to the tree, what else can we as a community do to stop this madness?

Comments most welcome!

[KidKruger]

Would be nice to keep all trees on residential streets.

Would be nice for trees on residential streets not to undermine front garden walls and front elevations of house.

Would be nice for council to plant trees that don?t interfere with existing structures.

[diable rouge]

KidKruger Wrote:

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''Would be nice for council to plant trees that don?t interfere with existing structures.''

This can be done using root guards, but maybe it's difficult to do in residential streets i.e. needs wider/deeper excavation work.

Regular trimming/lopping of trees is also supposed to prevent excessive root growth...the Bonsai principle...but that costs money etc.

There's always going to be problems on narrow fronted streets like the OP posted, roots will seek out sources of water e.g. drainage pipes/sewers, maybe we just need to accept that, London as a whole is still one of the greenest cities in the world...

[sweetgirl]

Maybe when you purchase a property & a tree is affecting you, you may understand.

Thankfully I?ve never been in that position!

I?ve seen peoples front walls near enough crumbling due to tree roots!

[fishbiscuits]

Yep... the previous two properties I've owned both suffered from movement due to tree roots. It's a real problem.

[KidKruger]

Not only that, when you contact the council regarding your front wall leaning when it?s 4ft from a tree / the pavement is bulging upwards all around the tree / the kerbstones are pushed up out of alignment - they deny it?s the tree and ask for proof. You have to demolish your wall / dig out the footings / take pictures / get a surveyor to confirm.

Then you get challenged, all when there?s a huge tree pushing up the fabric all around it when no other part of the pavement, walls, front gardens are affected alongside and down the street.

Yeah - green London, how cool !!

Why fell trees just because of insurance claims, just let the homeowner get in debt for 10s of ?1000s to shore up and underpin his house (or have a house he?s paying a mortgage on but can?t sell-on), right ?

The trees are so pretty and green it?d be a shame to remove them !

[Hare]

The felling of trees for reasons including 'insurance mitigation' is a long-established reality for many councils. It is described* on page 60 of Southwark's own Tree Management Policy along with a much more detailed exposition on pages 38-39.

In 2007, Tony Kirkham from Kew was involved in making a series for the BBC called 'The Trees That Made Britain'. I was invited to take part in my professional capacity to comment on tree cover in urban areas. Coincidentally, I was contacted at that time by a homeowner on Cambrwell Grove who was seeking advice about the demand by their house insurance company that the Victorian London Plane in the pavement outside should be felled. They did not want this to happen and felt that the insurance company was making an unreasonable demand, without being able to provide proper evidence that the tree was in any way affecting their house.

Upon speaking to Southwark Council's lead tree officer at that time, I established that the tree was not considered to be posing a threat as it was not dead, dying or dangerous and any root growth was already being limited through a longstanding practice of regular pollarding. However, despite Southwark's defensible rejection of the claims of the insurance company, they had received advice that the cost to the public purse to fight the demand in the courts (which the insurance company was actively threatening if the tree was not removed) was prohibitive and that therefore, as the lesser of the evils, the tree would be taken down. We were able to get BBC cameras down to the site and film the felling, which was then shown as part of the series to illustrate the dilemma of councils faced with costly court action to defend a non-felling stance.

I report this not because I have any insight into the case described in the original post, but to illustrate that decisions by councils to take down trees are sometimes made because the alternative is to engage in costly litigation with insurance companies, at the public expense. Like so many decisions in times of reduced funding, one set of expenditure is pitched against another and there are no winners. Fight a tree felling demand, or fund a public service already under threat?

I should also add that when I made a claim for subsidence that had resulted from the collapse of old clay water pipes along the flank wall of my own house, my insurance company demanded that all trees in a certain radius of my home - including those in the public domain - be felled. It's the only time ever that I've used the 'do you know who I am?!' attack and it was only because of my friendship with the Queen's tree surgeon that I was able to force them to rethink the demand. Felling demands can be a lazy response to a more complicated problem and whilst felling may sometimes be justified, we have lost a lot of street trees that need not have gone.

I firmly believe that we are losing more urban trees than necessary, whilst recognising that not all trees are the right trees, planted in the right places. Southwark launched a Tree Warden network in partnership with The Tree Council's national scheme as part of its tree management strategy in 2013 and that is still supposed to be running** but I signed up to be a volunteer Tree Warden and I've heard nothing for years. If the community were to be engaged and organised, perhaps we could save more of our important street trees... but it needs to be in partnership with Southwark, not against them. I'll be asking my candidates for election in May what their commitment will be to safeguarding our green canopy. I'll let you know the answers - and maybe you can do the same?

*"Annual Felling Programme:12.1 The annual felling programme includes trees recommended for felling from condition surveys which do not require removal within short time frames on the grounds of public safety, or in association with insurance associated mitigation. The programme has been designed to take place during the September/October period in the interests of operational efficiency, planned communications with stakeholders, and to limit the time between tree removal and replacement prior to the planting season (November ? March)"

**7.5.2 Tree Wardens

Community involvement has the potential to provide additional resources for tree management and maintenance. Past planting projects in Southwark have demonstrated that, when local residents are involved in planting and maintenance, new planting have a better survival rate, are less likely to be vandalised and give a sense of ownership to the local community. The Council will continue to encourage greater community involvement in the care and management of Southwark?s trees through schemes such as community planting and Tree Warden programmes. Tree Wardens will work with the Council to promote trees throughout the borough and be eyes and ears for the Council on tree related issues. The programme will be implemented in 2013.

[Thunderblue600]

UPDATED 12th April

I feel reassured by the response of Philip Barwell, (Senior Arboricultural Officer, London Borough of Southwark) Well at least I now don't need to consider chaining myself to the tree on the 14th April!

From: Barwell, Philip

Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 at 08:34

Subject: FW: Tree Removal Notice Ref Buchan Road 1315970 & Buchan Rd Tree Stump

Cc: Trees

Dear Michael Peacock

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding the Maple that is due to be removed in Buchan Road.

I can confirm that the tree has been implicated as the cause of subsidence damage to two neighbouring properties.

The tree was initially crown reduced in relation to the first claim for damage that was received in February 2019, however following receipt of a second claim for a different property it was clear that these works had been ineffectual in further preventing any ongoing damage.

As with all insurance claims that the council receives for tree related subsidence damage, we require a set of level of evidence to be provided that demonstrates that the tree is the cause any alleged damage.

We believe in both cases that the evidential thresholds that are set out in the London Tree Officer?s Association Risk Limitation strategy to have been met.

There are plans to remove the tree stump that is further along Buchan Road and replant during the 2022/23 planting season that falls between November and March.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions.

Kind regards

Phil Barwell, Senior Arboricultural Officer

London Borough of Southwark, Environment and Social Regeneration

Parks & Leisure, Third Floor 160, Tooley Street, SE1 2QH

0207 525 5442

[email protected]

UPDATED 8th April 2022 I can confirm about this particular tree:

1) The owner of the house directly opposite the tree has confirmed that he had not contacted the council and did not have any issues with the tree.

2) The owner of the next house confirmed 'my dad did contact the council in 2013 about this tree.' Also 'the leaves in the autumn are a nuisance.'

3) The tree roots have not impacted in any way on the pavement surface.

4) On Monday 11th April I will be contacting Southwark Council to seek more information.

How can we stop this madness of tree felling in residential streets? This morning walking down my street in Buchan Rd Nunhead to visit my lovely neighbour Valerie, I was HORRIFIED to see a demolition notice attached to a beautiful tree.

Reason for tree removal scheduled for April 14th 'Insurance Mitigation'

This will soon become an ugly stump same as another in our street, which I have been informed was removed on the basis of 'a neighbour complained.'

I am hopping mad about this, we should treasure every tree, not be chopping them down, if anything more trees should be planted in residential streets.

Southwark Council why not chop all the trees down in Buchan Rd AND Kimberley Avenue, well to be on the safe side for fear of any neighbours complaining just chop all residential street trees down in the entire borough.

Short of chaining myself to the tree, what else can we as a community do to stop this madness?

Comments most welcome!

Margaret Broadbent ? Telegraph Hill

Tell the Council it's outrageous and unacceptable, particularly in view of the fact that we are all being told to plant more trees to stop carbon going into the atmosphere. I hope the complaining neighbours develop an unpleasant respiratory disease, since they are the people helping to cause pollution.

Diane L. ? Peckham Rye Park

Had two felled on my street several years ago, but the stumps were removed and new trees replanted. The saplings have done very well and are thriving nicely so perhaps the same will happen here.

It's the roots of the tree. The roots of some mature trees undermine the foundations of buildings, so insurance companies won't insure the property unless the trees are removed, or charge large premiums to mitigate their risk.(edited)

Robert Woodliff ? Lyndhurst-St Giles Camberwell

Diane L. ...... was the tree there when they moved in .? Did they not move in 'cos of the nice green aspect ?? This is the Dog is not just for Christmas thing !!!

Mark Healey ? New Cross Gate

Robert was the tree as big when they moved in? Was its roots causing damage to their property? Were they able to get affordable insurance? It's not the same as getting a dog for Christmas - although perhaps we all need to be more mindful where trees are planted and consider how they will grow.

Robert Woodliff ? Lyndhurst-St Giles Camberwell

I would suggest the analogy is apt ....... I am not suggesting the council should have been more attentive ., or that the insurance should have looked at that which they insured before they insured it ..... but it ' s not much better than me suggesting the the council cut down the 40 ft tree across the road ' cos it sheds detritus onto the car ....... and on the tree side of the car you can easily get moss ..... and f'knows where the roots are getting to ., 'cos the gas board found them 5ft from " our side " of the road .. " was the tree as big when they moved in? "........ so it was a puppy & it now starts to chew the furniture .. Put a muzzle on it & clip it ' s toe nails .. Or are you just a Capability Healey., tailer it all to the pleasures of " the human " ???

Diane L. ? Peckham Rye Park

Robert Woodliff Mark is right Robert, trees do grow and what was no cause for concern one year, may well be condemned for removal 10-15 years later. The trees that were removed on my street were removed about 15 years after I moved in, so they were obviously fine for a very long time before their removal was deemed necessary. I am not saying this is right, but only responding to the point you made about the trees being there when the householders moved in.

Tony Osborne ? Lewisham Town Centre

Diane Exactly, unfortunately, as trees continue to grow, the branches and root network continue to spread. Sometimes this growth can damage buildings, water pipes, gas lines, sewer etc. Obviously, repairing these things are extremely costly, so it's better to prevent the damage(yes, an experienced

arborist can tell what direction the roots etc are growing from the disturbance in the ground) hopefully they will remove the stump and replant another tree. You are blessed in that most of the UK has subterranean utility services, and while this can be an issue at times, trust me, it's better than losing power etc any time there is a big weather event. My home in the US would use power regularly due to weather conditions, so much so that I installed a backup generator system. I've been here going on 2 years, and can't recall my power going out.(edited)

Lin Henden ? East Dulwich

I have a tree on council property next door but one which they were meant to cut down as my neighbour and I suffered really bad cracks from it and had to do an insurance claim which took nearly 3 years. The council should look after the trees and not let them get enormous. The one near me is busy getting into leaf again!

Robert Woodliff ? Lyndhurst-St Giles Camberwell

It would be interesting to find out why a public space can be damaged in this way by a private company ......... should they not be requested to perform " mitigation " reparation ., one tree out ., plant 1000 saplings ???

...... was the tree there when they moved in .? Did they not move in 'cos of the nice green aspect ?? This is the Dog is not just for Christmas thing !!!

Michael Peacock ? Nunhead Author

Dear Robert, your feedback is most valued, these are Victorian houses, no idea which neighbour complained. I have not noted any cracks in the walls of the houses adjacent.

These homes have not been on the for sale market for years, so it is not as if this would be a survey issue.

Mark Healey ? New Cross Gate

It seems to me that a legitimate reason has been given, the tree roots are damaging a nearby property and impacting upon the residents ability to get insurance. As much as I hate the see the tree go (it is a beautiful tree) I don't have to live with or without it affecting where I live. Hopefully those who do will insist that the stump is removed and a new tree is planted (try talking to them) - at the end of the day it is their loss, both the loss of a beautiful tree and the oxygen it helps create. Personally I'd focus efforts planting many more trees where they are loved and appreciated. Time better spent, encouraging the council to plant more trees across the borough.

Michael Peacock ? Nunhead Author

Dear Mark, I have not noted any cracks in the walls of the houses adjacent.

These homes have not been on the for sale market for years, so it is not as if this would be a survey issue.

Marzena Okoli ? Peckham Road-Southampton Way

Very soon we will living in desert

Cat Bull ? Camberwell Grove & Champion Hill

Sad to see more loss of greenery from our streets. Also worried by the increasing cutting down of low growth to clear spaces, losing important habitats for birds. Improving management of trees on our streets is important. An issue for raising with councillors and for us to consider when voting given the large cuts in central government funding of local authorities over the past 10 years.

Jaqui Teggin ? Queens Road Peckham

Such a loss. There are other ways to deal with trees other than to just cut them down.

Michael Peacock ? Nunhead Author

Very interesting feedback - for the record the Victorian houses adjacent to this tree have not been on the housing market for years, so it is not as if this would be a survey issue.

From the outside I have not noted any cracks.

Diane Collett ? Pepys

Phone your M.P.

Patricia Cummings ? East Dulwich

Insurance doesnt cover damage caused by trees. My home ( I rent) is being affected by street trees. The council utterly refuses to do anything about it. Also in Southwark.

I am not against trees at all - but plant tree that grow proportionate to the properties/roots spread.

Ben Powell ? The Blue, Bermondsey

Trees and greenery are very therapeutic to humans, we need to encourage more trees, more greenery instead of pulling it down.

Lorna Pierre ? Nunhead

Subsidence due to trees are not good for the home owner. This has impacted on my neighbour which impacted on my property as well. Insurance company to visit next week to fixed damage now that my neighbour has had her house underpinned!

Lucia Fevrius ? Nunhead

Love trees and greenery but also sometimes they are a hazard to the public also, on the 6th December my sister tripped on a tree root which is growing and lifting the pavement on a street in Dulwich she suffered cuts on her face on top and under her eyes, her forehead, broke her glasses, sprained her wrists and scrapped her knees, this was in the evening and although there was a lamppost on the other side of the street the lamplight cast a shadow on the tree trunk which hide the root. That tree is making the pavement difficult for wheelchair users to navigate so you have to look into what is the real reason for removing the tree they maybe moving and replacing.

Michael Peacock? Nunhead Author

Lucia this beautiful tree has not effected the pavement in any way, it does not present a tripping hazard.

Lorna Pierre ? Nunhead

Lucia I love green environments, good for wellbeing etc but trees can be a problem. Sorry about your sister?s situation. Councils need to avoid building on green areas so that there are more parks but then we need to house people, catch 22 situation.

Joan Thomas ? East Dulwich

there was a lovely tree outside my mum's house in Ulverscroft Rd, which the Council had to remove as it was causing cracks in her house. The man from the insurance co said that Souhwark Council were keeping him in work as they'd planted so many trees with roots that encroach under houses, which cause cracks & subsidence

[ianr]

Do you copy threads from here and post them in any of the other forums you belong to?

[Sue]

ianr Wrote:

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> Do you copy threads from here and post them in any

> of the other forums you belong to?

Indeed. Why not just give a link to the thread in question?

[Nigello]

Some trees die and others may present future or current perils. I?m glad that the one chopped down near Summerhouse School had been replaced, though not with the same species.