Lia Thomas

[KidKruger]

Lia Thomas: Florida governor Ron DeSantis refuses to recognise Thomas win https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60842863

[TheCat]

Response to fishbiscuits second point and oimissus's last post as well....

Its the 'womens space' issue that causes the most emotive responses in general.

Im sure that the lionshare of people out there would agree that the lionshare of transwomen are no threat to women and girls.

Just as the lionshare of men are no threat to women and girls.

But, as recent publicity on things like violence against women has shown - unfortatley our society cant just work on the 'lionshare'. We have to legislate/regulate for the small percentage of men that fark it up for the rest of us.

The technical term is, of course, 'safeguarding'

So, how do we safeguard womens spaces (and sports competitions for that matter) against the small minority of people born male, who might fark it up for the rest of the trans community?

[JohnL]

Not sure how you can safeguard any space - how would those laws work in our society where we pick the most beautiful people to enter clubs and ignore the rest, if you go to the Sun/Freemasons arms in Holborn you'll see the strange men with outsize briefcases (obviously no women).

There are less public spaces everywhere - parks - but what about when Peckham Rye park is rented out for the concerts we have a few times a year ? Do we need inspectors .

Workplaces - should be easy but -- since I was young all employee spaces within work have got less - the days of the big canteens and large restrooms are gone (I was so much happier in work when employees had a lot of space). You're lucky if you get few boxes to "rest" in - not really a space for any group

Co-Working - maybe room here for something.

Online - We don't have a digital ID system to even know if anybody is or isn't what they say they are.

[SpringTime]

Can I take a moment to get back to Lia Thomas herself please? I just wanted to say she has wonderfully attractive shoulders and a very pretty neck. Seriously, a beautiful woman. Thank you.

[SpringTime]

Haven't dared catch a glimpse of her bum but judging by her chest it must be very feminine.

[fishbiscuits]

OK that sounds kind of creepy now...

[SpringTime]

Bit like a bloke in a lady's swimming costume.

[JohnL]

SpringTime Wrote:

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> Bit like a bloke in a lady's swimming costume.

Speedos are yuck anyway whoever wears them

[Spartacus]

SpringTime Wrote:

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> Bit like a bloke in a lady's swimming costume.

Oh lord

Images of Matt Lucas in a bikini just crashed through my mind

Stop this element of the discussion now before the whole of ED has nightmares...

[JohnL]

If you ever did competitive swimming there are definitely two types - those who are relaxed taking part (me - I slowed down at the end of most races) and those like my sister (win at whatever cost) - it's difficult to overstate how competitive those who in these galas are - and I never understood the need to win just to march to a podium to general bogey. Even on holiday we had to find swimming baths for my sis to practice

Parents should beware of competitive swimming and I'd be quite happy to de-escalate the competitiveness :)

[oimissus]

"So, how do we safeguard women's spaces (and sports competitions for that matter) against the small minority of people born male, who might fark it up for the rest of the trans community?"

In the same way we safeguard women from every other male - by keeping them *all* out of women's spaces and sports. The decent ones know and understand why that happens, and might even spend some time campaigning (as women did for women, for decades) for third spaces etc.

Women's and girls' safeguarding and participation in public life should not be risked to validate male identities or male feelings.

[sharron Davies has just tweeted to say that a transman competed in this race too (not on testosterone though). So we are meant to believe that a transwoman is a woman, and a transman is also a woman, not a man? Which is it? Or is this simply a case is that someone trans is whatever they want to be at any given time depending on what's most convenient?]

[Nigello]

Putin made reference to the oligarchs and other Russians living abroad in a televised speech a week or so ago. He said that these people liked to think of themselves of a higher caste. Fine, he said, you carry on and think that, and then made a reference to the west's alleged advantages, including "your gender freedoms". It confirms my thought that he, a man who loathes western democracy, sees the over heated and ever present rows over gender and other forms of ID politics as a blatantly obvious and easily hittable Achille' heel of the west, which is so cock sure of itself and vain that it can afford such "luxuries". Does it mean that the debate was started or flame-fanned by his psych-ops people? I don't know but it does make one think.

[tomskip]

I agree with oimissus and it's frustrating that so many people have very little knowledge of

the long history of problems both with Stonewall and quite a frightening number of Trans Rights Activisits who are violent, threatening and utterly dismissive of the need to protect women's hard-won sex based rights. The argument that it's just "a handful" of athletes at present is not an argument to the women who lose in these events. And it won't be just a handful for long.

Also, being transexual has nothing whatsoever to do with being gay. My gay sister is alarmed by the erosion of her rights as much as any woman I know. Did you know that plenty of lesbians have been abused online by transwomen and TRAs because they do not find the idea of having sex with them and their intact male body an appealing prospect?

However, if someone identifies as female and wants to live as female then I think it's more respectful to refer to them as transwomen oimissus, rather than men/a man. After all, they will insist on calling us cis gendered, so can't object to that!

[heartblock]

[oimissus]

I stopped watching when the dodgy stats reared their heads. This statistic than trans people won?t make it beyond 35 is a global stat. The majority of trans deaths are in Brazil, which has a very high homicide rate anyway, and the majority there killed are working as prostitutes. It may be slightly relevant to the US (but is still a global, not American, stat) but is utterly irrelevant here, where trans is one of the safest demographics to be.

Please don?t peddle fake news like this. We have enough of it already with the false child suicides stats that have been repeatedly debunked and yet continue to be spread, to the detriment of children?s health.

[Bic Basher]

oimissus continues to post GC propaganda which I see all the time from their activists.

There might be a tiny group of trans people who agree with her and the GC clique, but most trans people simply want the right to be treated the same as cis people whether it's going to the toilet or being accepted legally as the gender they consider themselves to be.

[Chick]

What is GC and cis?

[heartblock]

If fake news is a loving and supportive mother, concerned about bringing her child up in a state that encourages people to vilify and demean her child then bring on that fake news matey. The last person I remember running around screeching 'fake news' 'fake news' was a certain USA president.

People are just people - gender is a social construct and sex is a lottery, it's just stupid, thoughtless DNA trying to replicate itself using us as walking sacks of code.

I don't care what you call yourself, where you take a piss, or what you do or don't have hanging between your legs - as long as you are nice to me and others.

So much hatred on this thread. I'm out.

[SpringTime]

heartblock Wrote:

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> If fake news is a loving and supportive mother,

> concerned about bringing her child up in a state

> that encourages people to vilify and demean her

> child then bring on that fake news matey. The last

> person I remember running around screeching 'fake

> news' 'fake news' was a certain USA president.

> People are just people - gender is a social

> construct and sex is a lottery, it's just stupid,

> thoughtless DNA trying to replicate itself using

> us as walking sacks of code.

> I don't care what you call yourself, where you

> take a piss, or what you do or don't have hanging

> between your legs - as long as you are nice to me

> and others.

> So much hatred on this thread. I'm out.

Come on, there isn't so much hatred here. Really, is there? I will be nice to you. Most people will. The codes might be thoughtless but we are not. We think about it lots!

Try to start a tribe with men who identify as women or vice versa. Try testing the most basic needs that the few last remaining families on Earth have to enable themselves to replicate without inbreeding. I promise you they will exchange their offspring in the most possibly positive manner to enable further procreation. I promise.

Men cannot create eggs, menstruate, house fertilisation, grow a child, deliver it, breast-feed, and pass on knowledge like women do.

We men are just all your girls' guests and we should be thankful for it.

And you can't start a tribe with people who are not willing. End of. Will never work despite the clap trap we (don't) choose to see on TV etc.

[Nigello]

GC - gender critical / Cis - a term that was always around in scientific worlds but was adopted in the early nineties to

Basically, such jargon helps people involved/invested in this rather rarified world seem clever and to give themselves an air of superiority. It also helps them (people on both sides) to look like they know best.

And oimissus is correct, dealing in facts not feelings. Trans deaths (mainly m to f) are big in Brazil at least partly because of the dangerous work done by some trans. Prostitution is dangerous work whichever sex you are and wherever you are in the world. It is a function of the work not necessarily a function of their (self) identity.

China and Russia look at these vanity-of-small-differences ID culture wars and make hay.

UK has human rights that are for all humans.

[oimissus]

Interesting that you mention the orange one given that trans/gender ideology rests upon and is shored up by lies that would probably make even him blush.

No mention of the awful lie that this mother thinks will land her child in the grave before time. And yes, America is an awful place for many minorities, and indeed women. Though that doesn't stop them offering children irreversible medication and surgeries so that they can be forced into gender norms and/or trans the gay away.

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If fake news is a loving and supportive mother,

> concerned about bringing her child up in a state

> that encourages people to vilify and demean her

> child then bring on that fake news matey. The last

> person I remember running around screeching 'fake

> news' 'fake news' was a certain USA president.

> People are just people - gender is a social

> construct and sex is a lottery, it's just stupid,

> thoughtless DNA trying to replicate itself using

> us as walking sacks of code.

> I don't care what you call yourself, where you

> take a piss, or what you do or don't have hanging

> between your legs - as long as you are nice to me

> and others.

> So much hatred on this thread. I'm out.

[TheCat]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I don't care what you call yourself, where you

> take a piss, or what you do or don't have hanging

> between your legs - as long as you are nice to me

> and others.

>

And herein lies a massive problem with this whole debate...

I would think that overwhelming majority of people who you and Bic Basher would chacaterise as 'GC' would AGREE with your comment above. I certainly havent seen anyone commenting on this thread (even the much demonised oimissus) suggest that transpeople dont have a right to be who they want to be....

The issues arise when there is potential impacts on other groups. Whether that be in the context of womens spaces, approriate healthcare or sports competition....having a sensible discussion on how to alleviate the legitimate concerns of other groups should in no way deny the trans-community its human rights....

But time and time again...raising some practical concerns gets conflated with 'hatred'.....and instantly dismissed...

> So much hatred on this thread. I'm out.

Honestly...if you cant even bring yourself to engage with people on this thread becuase of some of the things they have said. Perhaps you should reassess who is actually harbouring hatred for whom....

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

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''I would think that overwhelming majority of people who you and Bic Basher would chacaterise as 'GC' would AGREE with your comment above. I certainly havent seen anyone commenting on this thread (even the much demonised oimissus) suggest that transpeople dont have a right to be who they want to be....''

''...unless that transperson was previously a man and now identifies as a woman''

As has already been pointed out on this and previous threads on this subject, that's deeply insulting to a transperson, the denial of who that person identifies as.

An ex-work colleague who is third generation black British, once told me that the most hurtful thing that had been directed at him about his ethnicity wasn't the usual racial stereotypes/slurs that he had learnt to 'brush-off', but when someone casually told him that no matter what nth generation he was, he could never be 'truly British' because he was black and not 'indigenous' white.

It's that denial of someone's identity that cuts through and it's something that the likes of oimissus knowingly do...

[TheCat]

Talking plainly on a forum about the entire issue of 'people born as one gender and idenifying as another' sort of does require clear language though, as we cant just 'ignore' that transwomen were born male, as the specific issue we are discussing is 'trans' part....

I'd suggest that debate specifically about trans-issues on an anonymous internet forum is very different from misgendering a transperson who you might know and work with......

[JohnL]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> heartblock Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > I don't care what you call yourself, where you

> > take a piss, or what you do or don't have

> hanging

> > between your legs - as long as you are nice to

> me

> > and others.

> >

>

> And herein lies a massive problem with this whole

> debate...

>

> I would think that overwhelming majority of people

> who you and Bic Basher would chacaterise as 'GC'

> would AGREE with your comment above. I certainly

> havent seen anyone commenting on this thread (even

> the much demonised oimissus) suggest that

> transpeople dont have a right to be who they want

> to be....

>

> The issues arise when there is potential impacts

> on other groups. Whether that be in the context of

> womens spaces, approriate healthcare or sports

> competition....having a sensible discussion on how

> to alleviate the legitimate concerns of other

> groups should in no way deny the trans-community

> its human rights....

>

> But time and time again...raising some practical

> concerns gets conflated with 'hatred'.....and

> instantly dismissed...

>

> > So much hatred on this thread. I'm out.

>

> Honestly...if you cant even bring yourself to

> engage with people on this thread becuase of some

> of the things they have said. Perhaps you should

> reassess who is actually harbouring hatred for

> whom....

But as scientists would say - that's not science (we all already agree) its engineering (just provide what is needed for all) - so why the huge arguments - who gains with these arguments.