Lia Thomas

[oimissus]

Well, saying that someone who knows that humans can't change sex and using clear language that doesn't seek to obscure is akin to a racist is about the most successful way you could shut this conversation down.

[Spartacus]

It is becoming an increasingly grey area (50 shades worth)

For example, whilst someone whom is pre operation is allowed to identify as the opposite gender to the one they were born as, should they have access to services for the gender they associate with? Examples of this include a man identifying as female entering a woman's refuge or woman's toilet.

Whilst there is a discussion to be had we shouldn't shy away from the discussion or hard questions for fear of offending people.

If we are open, those who have issues may learn from the discussion, those in the middle may understand why there are objections and resistance and can then work to create mitigations and as the OP raised, rules/guidelines can be put in place to ensure fairness for all and ensure everyone is comfortable with change.

[JohnL]

We have multiple categories in Para sport and it doesn't make it any less watchable or stop some superb athletes being very well known.

The sport issue shouldn't be used as a trojan to take the T out of LGBT IMHO.

[Nigello]

Homosexuality is to do with sexual and emotional connection. Transgenderism is to do with one's identity. The two are not linked, really, but in the olden days there was a kind of kindred spirit (helped by the gender blurring that went/goes on in gay circles, perhaps in blatant revolt against the prurience and prejudice gay people faced). So I am not convinced that the two go together. Sexuality is sex based - a homosexual wants to have sex with the same sex, and has nothing to do with how a person believes he or she ought to present his or her body (ie. it is his or her own reality, going on in his or her head, not that of the wider society)

BAME has been ditched as being too much of an umbrella term. Perhaps the same will come of the ever-extending (and self-appointing) alphabet soup of LG+++++++++.

[DKH MUM]

It?s always transphobic when a woman or girl doesn?t want to share her safe space, her sports/swimming competition, her prison or her hospital ward with a man.

You can?t change sex, however you can get cosmetic surgery to change your appearance and take hormones. This is not changing sex.

Women are uniting on this and have the support of many, including the LGB community and some members of the T.

If you?re a concerned teacher reading this, get involved?you?re not alone.

Eg Womens Rights Network have groups all over the UK and many local groups in London.

https://www.womensrights.network/

@WomensRightsNet on Twitter

Don?t bother telling me what I am, I know what I am.

An adult human female.

[Jenijenjen]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We have multiple categories in Para sport and it

> doesn't make it any less watchable or stop some

> superb athletes being very well known.

>

> The sport issue shouldn't be used as a trojan to

> take the T out of LGBT IMHO.

I totally agree but equally the T issue should not be used to undermine the rights and lives of women

[oimissus]

Stonewall's redefining of homosexuality (from same-sex attracted to same-gender attracted) is unbelievable. But they did actually go there, and are still there.

But I'm not sure what an acronym has to do with protecting women's sports.

[oimissus]

Brava!

DKH MUM Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It?s always transphobic when a woman or girl

> doesn?t want to share her safe space, her

> sports/swimming competition, her prison or her

> hospital ward with a man.

>

> You can?t change sex, however you can get cosmetic

> surgery to change your appearance and take

> hormones. This is not changing sex.

>

> Women are uniting on this and have the support of

> many, including the LGB community and some members

> of the T.

> If you?re a concerned teacher reading this, get

> involved?you?re not alone.

>

> Eg Womens Rights Network have groups all over the

> UK and many local groups in London.

>

> https://www.womensrights.network/

> @WomensRightsNet on Twitter

>

> Don?t bother telling me what I am, I know what I

> am.

> An adult human female.

[Bic Basher]

All I will add to this debate is that trans rights are human rights and that certain people who are discussing trans people as if they're not here are no different to the bigoted homophobes of the 70s and 80s.

[KidKruger]

I think it is somewhat more nuanced than that.

[oimissus]

No one is talking about trans people not being here, that?s pure hyperbole. But humans can?t change sex and Lia Thomas is a clear example of how gender ideology negatively impacts women (I notice you?re steering clear of commenting on that).

What do you mean by trans rights? Trans people in the U.K. have the same rights as everyone else (that?s why it?s nothing like Section 28). The only ?right? trans people don?t have is the ?right? to impose their beliefs on anyone else. No one has that ?right?, and for very good reasons. Why do you think trans people should be exempt from that?

Finally, women?s rights are also human rights. They were hard fought for and hard won and not any man?s to give away.

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All I will add to this debate is that trans rights

> are human rights and that certain people who are

> discussing trans people as if they're not here are

> no different to the bigoted homophobes of the 70s

> and 80s.

[Bic Basher]

oimissus like all Gender Critical people use various offensive transphobic comments which for some reason seem to be socially acceptable in some circles.

Referring to Trans Women as "men" is highly offensive. It's no different to referring to a homosexual man using another slur.

We need to get to a point where trans people and non-binary people can compete in sport and nobody cares what gender they were born in. It should be the same for other situations where the GC rabble are for some reason scared of trans women in changing rooms and loos.

The fact EDF and Mumsnet have become havens for transphobia doesn't help either.

[TheCat]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> are for some reason scared of trans women in

> changing rooms and loos.

>

.

Umm....is this a p1sstake?

'For some turgid, quivering reason' would have been funnier....

(I should be clear, im not making comment on the validity or not of the loos/change rooms argument..(thats a hornets nest I dont have the energy to kick right now). Im more amazed that someone can seriously claim to not understand (for 'some' reason?!!!) why other people may think differently on this issue. And therefore use that as reason to just call them all bigots.)

[oimissus]

?GC rabble? 🤣🤣🤣

I wonder he just didn?t write witches.

[fishbiscuits]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is there anything considered wrong in suggesting

> that trans people have their own category in

> sports?

Yep, it is one solution. Not sure it is ideal because of the relatively small number of competitors. But I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting it.

redjam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Completely agree with you, oimissus. It's so

> unhelpful that we can't have a debate about these

> issues without instantly being accused of being

> transphobic.

I think debating it is fine as long as it's respectful. Being deliberately offensive (repeatedly referring to trans women as "men") is not cool and if you don't also want to be labelled transphobic, you should choose your allies carefully.

[fishbiscuits]

Bic/Cat I think the changing rooms issue is a tricky one (for both parties) but toilets... I don't get the problem. Ladies loos have cubicles. They are already private. Nobody else is going to see your genitals or vice versa. It's a complete non-issue.

[oimissus]

On what basis do you get to decide which single sex spaces are a ?non-issue?? What measure are you using to make that statement?

I?m not sure you?re in any position to call anyone else disrespectful. Certainly not a woman. I have no respect for anyone who seeks to erode my boundaries or tell me that those boundaries are a ?non-issue?.

[fishbiscuits]

On what basis do you get to decide it *is* an issue?

Just because you personally don't like it?

[JohnL]

oimissus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On what basis do you get to decide which single

> sex spaces are a ?non-issue?? What measure are you

> using to make that statement?

>

> I?m not sure you?re in any position to call anyone

> else disrespectful. Certainly not a woman. I have

> no respect for anyone who seeks to erode my

> boundaries or tell me that those boundaries are a

> ?non-issue?.

Thatcher privatised everything so spaces depends on who owns that space - capitalism and that won't change

If you go in bar Storey we all share the restrooms (or we did before pandemic).

[oimissus]

You think that single sex toilets exists simply because of what I like?

Seriously?

The biggest block to female education and female participation in public life globally is access to single sex toilets. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/single-sex-toilets-unesco-un-international-womens-day-period-a8244776.html

I also don?t know any men who are particularly happy with mixed sex toilets.

But I find it extraordinary that you think, for example, that a 12 year old girl should be sharing toilet facilities with adult men. You genuinely can?t see any problem with that at all.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

So the fact that single sex toilets have been standard for 100 years was all a silly mistake? And that it?s right that that mistake should be corrected?

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On what basis do you get to decide it *is* an

> issue?

>

> Just because you personally don't like it?

[oimissus]

And lots of women hate that.

The Peckham Coal Rooms have mixed sex toilets with shared hand washing facilities. It has stopped me from returning to eat a meal there.

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> oimissus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > On what basis do you get to decide which single

> > sex spaces are a ?non-issue?? What measure are

> you

> > using to make that statement?

> >

> > I?m not sure you?re in any position to call

> anyone

> > else disrespectful. Certainly not a woman. I

> have

> > no respect for anyone who seeks to erode my

> > boundaries or tell me that those boundaries are

> a

> > ?non-issue?.

>

> Thatcher privatised everything so spaces depends

> on who owns that space - capitalism and that won't

> change

>

> If you go in bar Storey we all share the restrooms

> (or we did before pandemic).

[fishbiscuits]

People complain about the lack of open mature debate, and I get that. I do. But your nasty, barely-concealed hatred is even more damaging to the conversation than the unjustified accusations of transphobia from the misguided woke brigade.

[TheCat]

I tend to agree with fishbiscuits on this one.

Oimissus, you can see that most my posts are actually baordly supportive of many of your concerns. I totally get that you're passionate, and I dont think anything you've factually said is inappropriate in isolation, its the overall the tone can put others off, and I'd argue that dialling back some of the delivery might be useful in getting more people to engage...if that is indeed what you want...

I beleive I would (and have) said the same to people at the other end of the debate...thats just my 2 cents, and its not about 'silencing' anyone of course, lets call it tempering:)

[fishbiscuits]

Yeah. I mean... if I were a female professional swimmer, would I want to be competing against a competitor 4 inches taller than me with bigger hands and shoulders? Probably not, to be honest.

If I were a transgender woman, male at birth, would I want people deliberately calling me a "man" and insinuating that I am a potential sex attacker? Definitely not!

[oimissus]

*TheCat* yes, I can see that from your posts and I thank you for them, and I am not addressing any comments to you. But in 6 years of this debate, I have come to realise, as I have explained upthread, why clear language that doesn't seek to obscure or confuse is the only way forward - and there are trans people out there who agree, who know they are not women but men, and support what I am saying and how I say it.

Men as a sex class are a threat to women, which is why we have single sex spaces. It doesn't matter how those men present or identity or feel. What is being suggested here by some is that some men, due to those identities or feelings, shouldn't be treated as all other men are but as a sacred caste, free from the usual due diligence, safeguarding etc.

History shows us that treating certain sections of society as being above suspicion hasn't exactly worked out well.

Right now we are hearing reports of men posing as aid workers on the Poland/Ukraine border, snatching girls and women to sell into sex trafficking. Abusive men will use every opportunity and will go to great lengths to access their victims. Those who work with these victims know this and have been shouting it from the rooftops for years, to no avail.

There are plenty of transwomen who know and understand this, who know that trans identities can and are assumed by men to access female victims. A far higher proportion of transwomen in prison (around 50%) than the male prison population are sex offenders. Should women and girls just ignore that fact?

The era of No Debate is over - we can see the damage done by shutting debate down. A man cheats women athletes. A man rapes a woman on a female hospital ward. Just the two most recent and high-profile occurrences. But it never happens. It hardly ever happens. It happens but it's a "non-issue".