Melbourne Grove Market Trial Online Survey

[jamesmcash]

Hi all,

Good to see there's some interest in this proposal, I'll be interested to see the results of the consultation. The idea initially came from the businesses on the street.

Best wishes

James

[ED_moots]

If it is a consultation James why doesn't southwark ask whether people want it or not?

How many of the 6 remaining businesses on Melbourne Grove support the market?

When did anyone at southwark last speak to them? Middle of last year wasn't it?

How many of the other ideas that these businesses suggested will southwark be consulting on or enacting?

These businesses have been kneecapped by CPZ and throttled by LTN - neither of which southwark saw fit to speak to them about before they came in.

I thought arrogance and hubris was a tory trait.

Best of luck on May, comrade.

[CPR Dave]

If the residents of Malbourne Grove don't want this market then I will vote in favour of it.

Let's see how they like having their street ruined by people who live elsewhere.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It kind of makes sense to have a market by the station, but I do wonder what the impact would be on North cross Road? Not sure ED can really sustain both

[pecksniff]

Funnily enough had heard a rumour about a nightclub owner viewing the vacant building opp M&S (near ED station).

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

CPR Dave Wrote:

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> If the residents of Malbourne Grove don't want

> this market then I will vote in favour of it.

A consultation is not a vote.

[Spartacus]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> CPR Dave Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > If the residents of Malbourne Grove don't want

> > this market then I will vote in favour of it.

>

> A consultation is not a vote.

A vote occurs in May

Maybe vote Labour out of you believe they aren't listening to the results of their own consultations

Monster Raving Loony Party please stand in Dulwich

[ED_moots]

CPR Dave Wrote:

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> If the residents of Malbourne Grove don't want

> this market then I will vote in favour of it.

>

> Let's see how they like having their street ruined

> by people who live elsewhere.

Thanks Dave. You've summed up how divisive these decisions are. Try not to forget not all residents on MG supported CPZ or LTN but here we are. I'll try to forget you clamouring for your own LTN on CPR.

[first mate]

Indeed. In the case of CPZs the council ripped up its own policy to consult street by street and because the majority of MG were against a CPZ, they divided the street into two to achieve the station area CPZ rollout.

I wonder, if they do put a market there, will traders have to turn up on cargo bikes with all their gear? Of course, it also means that for one day only children will be unable to play in the street.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

ED_moots Wrote:

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> I'll

> try to forget you clamouring for your own LTN on

> CPR.

oooooOOOOOooooohhhh! 👜👜👜

[ED_moots]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> ED_moots Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'll

> > try to forget you clamouring for your own LTN

> on

> > CPR.

>

>

> oooooOOOOOooooohhhh! 👜👜👜

LoL.

"Of course, it also means that for one day only children will be unable to play in the street."

Also lol. Has anyone actually seen this?

[ed26]

Why on earth will another vintage, hot food and artisan goods market "attract people to the area?" There's plenty of these markets in Clapham, Brixton, Forest Hill and, erm, just up the road on North Cross Road. If it really must be another market, it needs to be a proper old-fashioned working market - fruit & veg, meat, fish, provisions, etc., sold at competitive prices so that it is a facility for the wider community, not somewhere where you can get a sausage roll for ?5 and a "previously loved" C&A dress for ?50. It also needs to be up and running by 8am so local users can get what they need for the day before heading to work.

[KidKruger]

Because this market is a vanity project, aimed at (in-part) justifying unnecessary road closure, with no priority to serve the wider community. That?s why.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

ed26 Wrote:

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> If it really must be another

> market, it needs to be a proper old-fashioned

> working market - fruit & veg, meat, fish,

> provisions, etc., sold at competitive prices

There's insufficient demand in East Dulwich for that. That's why no-one does it at North Cross Road any more. It's literally market economics.

Ironically we do have an old-fashioned grocer on Lordship Lane (as well as two good modern greengrocers) and people are moaning about it already.

[Nigello]

I agree - thsi idea reeks of tired groupthink (like a fair few public body proposals for "vibrant, exciting" undertakings).

[first mate]

"Vibrant, exciting"... run for the hills! Visions of the ?10,000 NX rd mural spring to mind (the one that looks like a nursery school reception).

[Angelina]

I think there is neighbourly bitterness - those whose roads are not closed due to the LTN appear to want those who do have their roads pedestrianised to suffer in some form, be it the annoyance of a market outside your home on a Saturday.

am I wrong?

This doesn't mean I retract my support for the market - I actually think it's a great idea to bring life to the area around the station and the businesses there.

[goldilocks]

I don't really understand why its being proposed for Saturday rather than Sunday - not being in conflict with North Cross Road seems sensible and it is a 5 minute walk between the two.

I don't have strong feelings about it either way (other than if it goes ahead the bins will need emptying more frequently than they are now), but I do question the demand for 2 markets doing the same thing 5 mins apart on the same day.

[Jenijenjen]

"I think there is neighbourly bitterness - those whose roads are not closed due to the LTN appear to want those who do have their roads pedestrianised to suffer in some form, be it the annoyance of a market outside your home on a Saturday.

am I wrong?"

Perhaps not wrong but certainly exaggerated. If the market on Melbourne Grove goes ahead it will not be located outside the residential houses so will not cause that much inconvenience. In fact, living on North Cross Road, I can only suggest that it might make their street a little bit more interesting for residents than it is now.

[Metallic]

legalalien Wrote:

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> The other thing Tooley Street is quite big on is

> developing the nighttime economy. Given proximity

> to the station, might some sort of bar / nightclub

> enclave be a possibility?

>

> ETA on a related note, looks as though there?s

> going to be a ?Social Regeneration Charter? for

> Dulwich at some point in the near future - see

> https://www.southwark.gov.uk/regeneration/regenera

> tion-that-works-for-all?chapter=10. Presumably

> delayed due to COVID.

>

> More about social regeneration charters at

> https://www.communitysouthwark.org/social-regenera

> tion-charters.

>

> Something to keep an eye out for so it isn?t

> hijacked by in-the-know lobby groups, I suggest.

Perfect place for a night club or bar? The old Callow's building.

[heartblock]

Bar please, I can go eat Sardinian pizza and then get a Negroni!

[legalalien]

After being called out for being a scaremonger, I did go off to see what policy there is, and ended up reading a couple of interesting things on the London Assembly website. There's a December 2021 committee report on rebuilding the night time economy that includes

"Recommendation 10: The Mayor should work with local authorities to investigate the feasibility of meanwhile use of vacant premises for night-time businesses and events." So my bar suggestion is actually not that wide of the mark of where the policy is. It's worth adding, though, that there is also this "Recommendation 9: The Mayor and London Councils should work with Central Government to review London?s licensing arrangements, to ensure that schemes work for both businesses and residents. This work should be undertaken this winter to allow plans to be put in place in time for summer 2022."

The New Southwark Plan adopted this week includes in the East Dulwich section a planning consideration to "Seek to protect East Dulwich?s retail offer and maintain a balance between shops and night time economy uses

which protects the amenity of local residents."

So noisy nightclub, no, but could be something like some bars. One thing I thought looked interesting was the idea of a night market.

Some links here, the second one has a section with lots of interesting case studies in it.

https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/london-assembly/london-assembly-publications/night-vision-rebuilding-londons-night-time-economy

https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/arts-and-culture/24-hour-london/night-time-strategy-guidance (Mayor suggesting that boroughs should be producing Night Time Strategies. A quick google didn't bring up any recent Southwark documents.

[Jenijenjen]

It could be loads of things. This is still pure conjecture that it might happen in Melbourne Grove and these frameworks do not constitute evidence. Other than granting licenses, whether a bar economy happens in Melbourne Grove is mostly outside of the Council's power. A night market may be interesting but it aint going to happen. There is a huge difference between North Southwark and suburban East Dulwich.

ETA The part in the Southwark Plan you quote "Seek to protect East Dulwich?s retail offer and maintain a balance between shops and night time economy uses which protects the amenity of local residents." I take this to mean not to increase the night time economy but to ensure that as shops fall vacant that council priority should be given to regular shops rather than approve a change of use to become a bar or restaurant.

[legalalien]

I?m not suggesting there?s some plan for it to happen but rather that it would be an idea worth consideration and consistent with the overarching policy framework.

I put in the bit about the Southwark Plan precisely to give readers some comfort as you complained that I was scaremongering last time. Some people are never happy!

Why wouldn?t eg a Friday evening market be a good thing? It would avoid the clash with NCR and would be good for commuters?

I do agree with your point that policies that work in some areas don?t work in other areas because of local conditions; though.

[goldilocks]

I think that Friday commuters are fewer and fewer in the increased hybrid working we're seeing. Not sure that people going home on a Friday night would want to stop off for an 'artisan sausage roll' or even a kilo of apples (depending on the type of market) - plus there is M&S for general food and the lovely Marvellous Greens and Beans who are open late anyway for Greengrocer offerings plus the excellent Jones the Grocer for more 'artisan foodstuffs' if that's what people are looking for.

Essentially the types of markets that work are the Northcross / Herne Hill offerings and they work best in the daytime when people are getting food and browsing limited other offerings. Sunday would clash with Herne Hill rather than Northcross and would seem more sensible as its less of an easy walk between ED and HH than it is between MG and Northcross.