Enforced Water Meters

[Penguin68]

I have just received a letter/ pack from Thames Water saying that they now have a statutory right to force all households (presumably in London) to have smart water meters - whether they want one or not.

Whilst I have nothing against actions which will help conserve water, it is a bit rich that the largest single waster of water locally - Thames Water with its horrendous history of leaks - should now be able to enforce what will almost certainly be higher charges to line the pockets of their owners at the expense of London householders.

The old water rates had some oversight, but these charges, which will be based on Thames' interpretation of usage, will be open ended and uncapped (and will be unilaterally imposed within 12 months of the meters being fitted). Of course some people will reduce their usage, by washing less (them and their clothes) or other economies - but this sort of open ended-pillage (particularly when other prices are soaring as well) - and by a company which is notoriously wasteful and inefficient (how many times locally do they shut roads to 'repair' exactly the same stretches of pipe?) does seem unacceptable, at least to me it does.

Water rates were one of the few charges which were predictable - you knew at the beginning of each fiscal what the monthly pain would be - but now we have a foreign owned monopoly (it is owned by Kemble Water Holdings Ltd, a consortium formed in late 2006 and formerly owned by Australian-based Macquarie Group's European Infrastructure Funds specifically for the purpose of purchasing Thames Water) able to charge effectively what it wants.

There is nothing, of course, that we can do about this - but did this come as much as a surprise to other ED-ers as it did to me, or have I just been asleep whilst it happened around me?

[Nigello]

THe advantage is that you won't waste water. Using more than you need not only wastes the water itself but also the power needed to clean it up, etc. I think you will save money because you will be using only what you need and will be mindful of waste though I can understand that being told by Thames Water that it doesn't like waste is a bit annoying. (At least, though, this move is proof it wants to reduce wastage.)

[Penguin68]

At least, though, this move is proof it wants to reduce wastage.

No, it's proof it wants access to uncapped and open ended charging. All the research suggests that providing access to detailed usage information (for power or water) makes an alteration in year 1 or so to usage, but this soon changes and reverts back to normal habits. The reason why our area is perceived to be at water risk is substantially down to Thames Water's inability to manage its supply well (i.e. keep it in the pipes). And it is by no means clear that the impact of climate change on the UK will necessarily be to reduce the amounts of water falling on our islands. This may actually increase. In which case the issue may well be about run-off and not water meters. The water is better conserved if the rain gets to water tables and aquifers for storage, rather than not. Not using impermeable stone or concrete in drives and back gardens (in London) may have a far greater impact (and gravel and permeable linings are far cheaper than stone, at least). And that's nothing to do with Thames Water or lining their coffers.

[jazzer]

I have one such "smart meter" which was fitted 18 months ago and my charges have been based solely on the amount of water used, so far there has been no indication that the costs are being determined by peak or off peak timings. I guess this is a possibility bearing in mind the recent press reports of how some energy companies (OK, three so far) are intending to alter the costs throughout the day.

I suspect Thames Water are using this is one way of reducing the "costs" of a man coming twice a year to read the water meter in the pavement, very similar to the way energy meter readers of gas and electricity are being slowly phased out. How often do you see one and if you do, they are not from your energy company, but have been sub contracted out to a third party who "specialise" in meter reading. Arghhhhhhhhhhh.

So yes, water meters are being made "smart"

And avoid a smart energy meter unless you want a bill that may charge you a different rate up to 48 times a day. In last Thursday's Daily Telegraph (no, it's not my daily paper) it was the neighbours after I saw the front banner about how a journalist objected to energy smart meters (well worth a read).

[JohnL]

Not even been able to install gas/electricity smart meters yet as the contractors claim they can't park in Rye Lane or anywhere else.

So can't see it being different for water meters.

[goldilocks]

I'd also received that letter and was surprised. Wondered if they were overstating powers and was going to look into it.

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have just received a letter/ pack from Thames

> Water saying that they now have a statutory right

> to force all households (presumably in London) to

> have smart water meters - whether they want one or

> not.

>

> Whilst I have nothing against actions which will

> help conserve water, it is a bit rich that the

> largest single waster of water locally - Thames

> Water with its horrendous history of leaks -

> should now be able to enforce what will almost

> certainly be higher charges to line the pockets of

> their owners at the expense of London

> householders.

>

> The old water rates had some oversight, but these

> charges, which will be based on Thames'

> interpretation of usage, will be open ended and

> uncapped (and will be unilaterally imposed within

> 12 months of the meters being fitted). Of course

> some people will reduce their usage, by washing

> less (them and their clothes) or other economies -

> but this sort of open ended-pillage (particularly

> when other prices are soaring as well) - and by a

> company which is notoriously wasteful and

> inefficient (how many times locally do they shut

> roads to 'repair' exactly the same stretches of

> pipe?) does seem unacceptable, at least to me it

> does.

>

> Water rates were one of the few charges which were

> predictable - you knew at the beginning of each

> fiscal what the monthly pain would be - but now we

> have a foreign owned monopoly (it is owned by

> Kemble Water Holdings Ltd, a consortium formed in

> late 2006 and formerly owned by Australian-based

> Macquarie Group's European Infrastructure Funds

> specifically for the purpose of purchasing Thames

> Water) able to charge effectively what it wants.

>

> There is nothing, of course, that we can do about

> this - but did this come as much as a surprise to

> other ED-ers as it did to me, or have I just been

> asleep whilst it happened around me?

[Rockets]

I always thought they would give you the option to install a water meter but maybe that has now changed as they know people are wise to the fact that a house with more than a couple of people in it will likely end-up paying more. The advice from folks like Martin Lewis has been don't do it unless you have more bedrooms than people in the house so maybe Thames Water is taking the option away and looking to raise revenue on the back of it.

[Penguin68]

And avoid a smart energy meter unless you want a bill that may charge you a different rate up to 48 times a day.

There is no option, according to the bumf.

I suspect Thames Water are using this is one way of reducing the "costs" of a man coming twice a year to read the water meter in the pavement

Most people have NO water meter - they are charged based on their rateable value only. So no cost (or indeed accuracy) savings here - for most households there is no meter to read.

I would add that if they plan to be able to turn-off the water remotely - as they can with smart gas and electricity meters, then you may shortly expect a friendly North Korean or Russian to do precisely that - either to hold Thames water to ransom (but I bet their foreign owners won't pay) or as an act of aggression. And it will be bottled water all round then, as there won't be the man power to manually override the electronic off switch.

[hpsaucey]

INteresting article on Clapham experience here:

https://lavender-hill.uk/2021/04/22/compulsory-water-meters-are-coming-to-clapham-common-northside/

HP

[Penguin68]

This from the article above

This will hopefully go some way to dealing with a predicted water shortage of around 387 million litres of water a day in the London area by 2045, which is expected to get worse with time increasing to 688 million litres of water a day by 2100 (a quarter of the water Thames Water currently supply!). The choice is either to ship a lot of water to London from the north at great expense (think huge pipelines, reservoirs and pumping stations), or to push out meters to get us to use it more efficiently. And it seems we all use less water when we?re billed for it by the cubic metre (Thames Water reckon water use goes down by twelve percent).

That said, there is another thing Thames Water can do: reduce the number of leaks in their ageing water network! In February this year they lost a staggering 732 million litres of water every day to leaks (which is rather more than the total predicted daily water shortfall in 2100). It?s a big and difficult job: in the same month they repaired 4,568 leaks, but realistically a lot of London?s pipework apart from the really major water mains is a creaking mess of lead and ancient cast iron and needs a major upgrade, and Thames Water have consistently missed their leak reduction targets.

Note that there is more leaking daily from their pipes now than they anticipate they will need by 2100!

[Nigello]

well, if you know you are going to be charged for water use and continue to waste it, then that's up to you. (where you = anyone, not the poster of any reply here before anyone gets their knickers in a knot!)

[Underhook]

- a third of TW?s network in London is over 100 years old, hence the volume of leakage. It would be uneconomic to replace all pipes with plastic pipes overnight. Nobody expects a water company to achieve zero leakage in the short term, that would be impossible

- water meters are essential for reducing consumption and stress on scarce water resources. This remains true regardless of the above point. As a metered customer you cannot be cut off from your water supply.

- water companies cannot charge whatever they like. Tariffs are set by Ofwat and companies have no discretion to charge what they like to customers

- there is no Russian or North Korean ownership of UK water infrastructure

[JohnL]

Underhook Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> - there is no Russian or North Korean ownership of

> UK water infrastructure

There's a few owners listed here (2018 article) - no Russia or North Korea - but a fair few others

https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/more-70-englands-water-industry-owned-foreign-companies

[Penguin68]

there is no Russian or North Korean ownership of UK water infrastructure

It would be a very strange hacker that decided to hack something they owned. At the moment our 'smart' systems are very open to cyber attack - the neatest of which is to switch-off supply to individual addresses, which the smart systems do support (I have contacts in the power industry who confirm this). Hospitals, schools, energy suppliers and private companies have all been attacked by ransomware, most attackers being based in e.g. North Korea and Russia, although many of the Russian ones are probably simply criminal gangs and not state agents.

Almost certainly these would need to be individually switched back on again, particularly if the underlying code was taken over by ransomware. Smart meters are communicating IT, based in your premises and impacting your supply, over which you have no control - you cannot password these wifi hubs which belong, and are fully in the control of, your supplier - or whoever is now controlling your supplier.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Penguin68 Wrote:

--------------------------------------------- now we

> have a foreign owned monopoly... able to charge effectively what it wants.

1) OFWAT regulates water prices in this country. Thames Water can't charge what it wants.

2) it's not like HBOS/Virgin/Capita would treat you any better. If you like your capitalism wrapped in a St George's Cross and wearing a bowler hat, that's up up you.

[rupert james]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> THe advantage is that you won't waste water. Using

> more than you need not only wastes the water

> itself but also the power needed to clean it up,

> etc. I think you will save money because you will

> be using only what you need and will be mindful of

> waste though I can understand that being told by

> Thames Water that it doesn't like waste is a bit

> annoying. (At least, though, this move is proof it

> wants to reduce wastage.)

How do you know when you are wasting water? You might but others might not. Seems these days the powers that be seem to know how people live or what they really need.

It does seem these days people are being rounded up and pushed into things they have not been consulted on or want.

Still shareholders are the people that have to be kept happy and repairs to fix wastage is not high on the agenda if if requires monies to be paid out.

[jazzer]

Water meters have been with us for 35+ plus years, smart water meters are new technology. I appreciate that P68 is not on a water meter and probably does not want a smart water meter. People have had a long time to adapt, as I said previously, I've had a smart water meter for probably 18+ months and so far no problem.

[rupert james]

Where are these meters being enforced in highly populated areas? are the leafy confines of Dulwich etc being told they must have them?

I got my letter today how have I had a long time to adapt?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

If you're that upset about water meters, I suggest you read this publication from 9 years ago that will answer basic questions: https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/prs_lft_101117meters.pdf

If you're not running a salmon farm in the back garden, you probably don't have much to worry about.

[rupert james]

You should contact your company to find out if you

might benefit from having a meter. You can also find

a water meter calculator on the Consumer Council for

Water?s website (www.ccwater.org.uk).

Seems this is no longer applicable. You will obey

[Underhook]

Smart meters measure how much water you are using so you can manage your usage (and bill) while helping the environment. The UK water system is a pressurised network relying on basic physics. Double check with your contacts, they will confirm that there is no possibility of a Russian (or other country) cyber attack affecting your water supply or waste water treatment

[rupert james]

I am quite pleased that I am in my late seventies and can still question and not accept everything that is put up

and have to follow it by being led by the nose to the so called promised land.

Accept everything that is put up on social media at your peril.

Soon you will obey what is put up on the internet without question.

[Siduhe]

a third of TW?s network in London is over 100 years old, hence the volume of leakage. It would be uneconomic to replace all pipes with plastic pipes overnight. Nobody expects a water company to achieve zero leakage in the short term, that would be impossible

Completely agreed, but the volume of leakage is increased substantially by TW's shoddy approach to repairs and to the major works they undertake. Take the replacement of the pipe and water main along Melford and Underhill earlier this year - a 4 week planned job took over 3 months because Thames Water cracked the gas pipe and gas main serving about 30 households in their repair works (so most of us had no gas and central heating for 5 days).

Let's be charitable and say the gas main was old too and it wasn't their fault.

But guess how many times they have been back to repair the brand new water pipe they put in less than 9 months ago?

At least 5 times that I am aware of, including one repair which left the road in such a bad condition (protruding access cover, which was still leaking) that it was really dangerous to cars and cycles. Southwark actually came and fixed that one as an emergency and back charged it to Thames Water.

So I'm all for giving them a break on the number of pipes to be replaced and repairs to be made. I just wish they would do a proper job and not a bodge/patch it up and get the hell out of dodge approach they seem to have.

[ed26]

My water bill went down a lot when I moved to a meter, even though I resisted having a meter as long as I could. The only problem was that the mains sprung a leak between the meter and my boundary, so there was a lot of arguing with the water company about the responsibility for the cost of the water, but they paid up eventually.

[sally buying]

Perhaps it would give people a better idea if you could tell what sort of property you live in, how many people, adults and children mlive in it and if you have a garden.

If it?s only you it is pretty useless give the above

I think it is yet another nose led rip off by companies who only have their shareholders in mind. As long as green comes into it people will follow like sheep.