Ukraine situation

[SpringTime]

Maria Zakharova has just made a nice comment involving Swedish and Finnish NATO accession. These people running Russia must be totally paranoid. And they're right to be paranoid too, because they can't stop lying. And they lie because they are thieves.

[TheCat]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The situation is indeed worrying.

>

> One thing we all have to be thankful for is that

> Trump is no longer in charge.

>

> DulwichFox

There's quite a lot of analysis and commentary around suggesting the whole thing was very unlikely to have taken place had Trump still been in power.

In anycase, I can't say I'm feeling particularly encouraged by the 'leadership' old sleepy Joe has shown.....

[Sephiroth]

"There's quite a lot of analysis and commentary around suggesting the whole thing was very unlikely to have taken place had Trump still been in power. "

not from anyone credible - unless you care to illustrate otherwise?

It's basically a pro-Putin line despite any protestations to contrary

Frankly you should be ashamed to even type something like that

[TheCat]

Honestly. Do you have an alert set up whenever I post, so you can wind up your 'indignant' meter with an overly aggressive and unessary post? This seeming obsession with rubbishing or shaming every post I make is totally unnessary. Im sorry my very existence seems to irritate you so.

I made an observation, which is factually true. There is indeed a lot of commentary to that effect.

I'm not ashamed of that in the slightest.

[Sephiroth]

There are also a lot of reports claiming that the Ukrainian govt are nazis and killing innocent people - that doesn't make them true

Your post is implicitly supporting that view (about if Trump was president there would be no war) - and you certainly aren't saying you disagree with it. So give over with the "hey I'm just a neutral messenger"

days after Trump spoke of admiring and supporting Putin - why would anyone do that?

[TheCat]

Just becuase you are incapable of being a neutral or objective observer. Please don't assume others cannot.

I don't know whether I agree with those views or not..im not the expert in international defence strategy that you apparently have recently become. It would seem to me that some of that commentary is not totally unreasonable from 30secends of cursory thought. Polls have shown that over 60 percent of US citizens seem to think Ukraine invasion was less likely if Trump was still in office, and Biden's approval ratings with respect to how he has dealt with this are very poor. Again, I don't know if that's the right or wrong view (I'm sure you'll helpfully tell me who you view as a credible observer..my guess is someone who already agrees with you?).

So anyway, perhaps a discussion over the issue isn't so fringe/outrageous/ridiculous/shameful as you seem to think it is.

[sjsl]

There is a demonstration at Downing Street today from 12, if anyone wants to come along and show supprt.

[diable rouge]

''Just becuase you are incapable of being a neutral or objective observer. Please don't assume others cannot.''

If only that were true, if only.

Over the years I've learnt that with Cat's posts it's not so much about what he writes, but why he writes, today's gambit being a perfect example.

We know what you are...

[Sephiroth]

I mean leaving personalities aside. What?s the smart, objective, neutral take when a thug like Putin invades another European country

So many far left and far right commentators saying it?s the wests fault, natos fault etc etc. are just apologists for war crimes. And no amount of indignation can hide that

And to have trump saying putin is smart and approving him. And to not take the opportunity to condemn that? Because? why wouldn?t you?

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ''Just becuase you are incapable of being a

> neutral or objective observer. Please don't assume

> others cannot.''

>

> If only that were true, if only.

>

> Over the years I've learnt that with Cat's posts

> it's not so much about what he writes, but why he

> writes, today's gambit being a perfect example.

>

> We know what you are...

If you could please let me know 'why' I wrote today's 'gambit'....I would really appreciate it....

(As an aside, it's really quite a skill that you and seph have to turn what was really a fairly innocuous initial post into some sort of indignant crusade against my devious hidden agenda)

[diable rouge]

We know what you are...

[KidKruger]

Why would the views of tens of millions of Americans on Ukraine/Putin, especially if they?re Trump supporters, have any meaningful bearing at all (apart from to warn us what a state the US is in) ? And why would that even be reported by media ?!

And Cat, what you?re saying is your post was completely neutral, just floating a view for the benefit of EDF readers, a view from arguably the dumbest portion of US society, because you thought that?d be useful here, right ?

[TheCat]

Sigh. I don't know why you people need to make everything a 'fight'....

Very similar to a certain Russian President we all know....

[malumbu]

Not sure how calling Republicans dumb helps anything. It is like saying all Brexteers are stupid. Yes there are some dumb Trump supporters, and some stupid people who voted for Brexit. But there are also clever, educated people too. Confusing of course but true. And at the moment I expect Trump is favourite to get back in again. Now that with Putin is worrying.....

[confusing but true was a facetious remark)

[jazzer]

What absolute nonsense you write. And that's the polite version!!!!!!!!!

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just becuase you are incapable of being a neutral

> or objective observer. Please don't assume others

> cannot.

>

> I don't know whether I agree with those views or

> not..im not the expert in international defence

> strategy that you apparently have recently become.

> It would seem to me that some of that commentary

> is not totally unreasonable from 30secends of

> cursory thought. Polls have shown that over 60

> percent of US citizens seem to think Ukraine

> invasion was less likely if Trump was still in

> office, and Biden's approval ratings with respect

> to how he has dealt with this are very poor.

> Again, I don't know if that's the right or wrong

> view (I'm sure you'll helpfully tell me who you

> view as a credible observer..my guess is someone

> who already agrees with you?).

>

> So anyway, perhaps a discussion over the issue

> isn't so fringe/outrageous/ridiculous/shameful as

> you seem to think it is.

[diable rouge]

Thousands of innocent women and children being blown out of their homes by an illegal invasion, and someone wants to deflect the conversation onto a pro-Putin hypothetical that it wouldn't have happened under Trump.

Sigh all you want Cat, you're shameless...

[KidKruger]

It?s a generalisation Malumbu, which it has to be seeing as I don?t know each of them personally.

But look at them, and look at what they support, still. And who (the person) they voted for.

There?s a serious shortfall in wits at hand hence my expression dumb as.

Nobody would like to be proven wrong more than me !

And Cat, I don?t think people are looking for a fight, you do have some control over the responses you get to your posts - chiefly, what you include in them !

[TheCat]

Agreed Mal.

For the record (and it's disappointing that I even need to say this), I thought:think Trump was a total disaster and embarrassment to the US (and the 'free world')....

The 'fault' for the invasion of Ukraine lies squarely with Putin, and it's only people with an axe to grind against me personally, who could somehow contort themselves to imply that my initial comment suggested anything otherwise.

Furthermore, in a wide ranging discussion on the whole issue, why should Biden escape criticism (as he seemingly has on this entire thread, and from people who typically aren't shy about criticising governments and their actions). And why is it not legitimate to compare his actions against the president who held office immediately prior to him?

Apparently though it is. Apparently saying something not totally negative about Trump means implicit support of everything about the man. Apparently citing the views of 60 percent of the US population (according to polls) is a waste of time for the intelligentsia of the EDF. Because thinking about such things is only for the 'dumbest' or those pushing their devious agenda. Apparently, mentioniung such things, and doing so in the name of objectivity is grounds for being mocked for not being objective. Because, apparently, to some others, 'objectivity' doesn't involve thinking about things from different perspectives. It warrants mockery and dismissal.

Mal...you ask in another thread why people don't contribute to discussions in the Lounge...unfort for every poster such as yourself who will respect most posters and different perspectives, there are another two who prefer to bully people into not really bothering....

[Sephiroth]

As someone who has been so, erm, engaged with 4Cat in recent years I think it?s now obvious what he is.

If I engage with 4Cat again, someone slap me

[TheCat]

So you and DR know 'what I am'.....so I ask again...I'd appreciate if you'd let me know....

[diable rouge]

Shameless...

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thousands of innocent women and children being

> blown out of their homes by an illegal invasion,

> and someone wants to deflect the conversation onto

> a pro-Putin hypothetical that it wouldn't have

> happened under Trump.

>

> Sigh all you want Cat, you're shameless...

All this coming from a poster....who on the first page of this very thread has attempted to draw lines of inference between Putin's actions and Brexit, as well as between Putin's actions and Johnson's 'boosterism' and lack of action on Russian money in the UK.

So it seems according to DR it's not shameless to make those linkages, and apportion some blame to Brexit and Boris.....but to imply the that actions of the leader of the free world might have a linkage....well that, apparently, is shameless..

You truly are beyond parody.

[diable rouge]

You carry on convincing yourself Cat.

Shameless...

[JohnL]

You have to give it to these guys.

President of Ukraine is a comedy actor who played a president in a comedy series and ended up as real President and then when the USA offers to fly him out of the country he refuses so he can fight

Mayor is a boxer who we started of hating but sort of charmed everyone as Champion and he's taking up arms too.

[JohnL]

It's worth noting that many of the war experts seem to be saying there's a chance Ukraine could hold out.

Russians beginning to have supply line issues.