Dates that go down in history: Tuesday March 19, 2013

[silverfox]

Sticking my neck out here a bit but as nobody else has mentioned it I may as well.

If the Cyprus Parliament ratifies the bail-in proposals whereby the EU/IMF can plunder ordinary people's bank accounts then bye bye EU experiment.

Any half-wit can tell you you do not mess around with people's hard earned money. The idea that Brussels Eurocrats can entertain such an idea is beyond my comprehension.

Tuesday will bring a run on banks that will shake all Eurozone members.

The straw that broke the camel's back?

[Huguenot]

I don't really see what this has to do with the 'EU experiment' (a politcial agreement regarding trade and various other social agreements) so I don't really see that this has an impact on it.

This is about over leveraged banks needing recapitalization.

You might at a stretch argue that this will have an impact on the Euro (a common currency) but since this is about banks rather than government funds it doesn't really refer to that either.

[New Nexus]

Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask.

They are not even hiding behind the mask of ?austerity measures?

[Huguenot]

The EU has an obligation to its taxpayers to spend the money wisely.

If you pay any tax New Nexus you should be grateful that they respect their duty of care.

[????]

It's another inpratical solution to prop up an unpratical currency, with consequences beyond the short term.... but not sure if it's as dramatic as that SF.

lol at the EU respecting their duty of care 'to spend money wisely'....Huge you are like an evangelical christian nutter in your insistence on seeing nothing but good in everything EU/Eurozone. It's horribly wasteful, bloated and unaccountable

I would still vote to stay in the EU but most people can see it's an overbureaucratic, increasingly unaccountable institution badly in need of reform and more democratic accountability...it's one of the reasons the Germans are so keen that we remain in the EU as they see the need for reform and the UK as an ally in this. This isn't swivel lheaded jingoism just reality.

The next stage in the Euro crisis though.......Germany just buying time to work out how they are going to bale out Spanish banks and the Italian state

[New Nexus]

Who else wet themselves with laughter when they read this statement?

?The EU has an obligation to its taxpayers to spend the money wisely.?

Someone appears to be forgetting -

?EU auditors refuse to sign off accounts for 18th year in a row?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2228612/European-Union-STILL-wasting-billions-year-auditors-refuse-sign-accounts-18th-year-row.html

EU = Malfeasants

[Huguenot]

I'm not rose-tinted about the EU Quids - it's just I believe clear, logical and fair minded assessment of it's capability.

The evidence that this is not taking place is in UK popular belief about the EU swinging from 70% in favour to 70% against in 6 short years, with attribution being the challenges of the Euro, and Global recession. Both of which the EU bear no culpability.

This means I immediately respond when something is incorrectly attributed to the EU, or there is confusion between the EU and the single currency, or the EU and global recession, or the EU and industry malpractice as in this case.

When 90% of the allegations incorrectly leveled at the EU are negative, that means 90% of mine are positive. That seems to be what it takes to balance the books.

I've consistently said there are challenges with the EU, and consistently said they must be overcome in order to align for future challenges.

I totally agree with you that is why Germany want the UK there.

[El Pibe]

The real date that goes down in history is that New Nexus has finally voiced an opinion of his own with a link to a mainstream source, hurrah for that man!

[New Nexus]

Question: When is your money in your bank account not your money?

Answer: As soon as any funds have been deposited into your bank account.

Take a look at your bank account T&C.

?Money deposited in a bank account is, as established under case law going back more than 200 years, legally the property of the bank, rather than the account holder.?

MP Douglas Carswell - September 15, 2010;

[Loz]

New Nexus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?Money deposited in a bank account is, as

> established under case law going back more than

> 200 years, legally the property of the bank,

> rather than the account holder.?

> MP Douglas Carswell - September 15, 2010;

That's not a big surprise when you think about it. If you lend me ?20, the money is then my property to do with as I like, but I am in debt to you for that amount. It's the same thing: you have given the bank your money and now you are a creditor to the bank.

[Huguenot]

Why is that weird? Why should that be a point of protest?

Money doesn't actually exist, it's a medium of exchange provided by a business institution that we all buy into.

We are welcome to barter (within reason), and many places have their own medium of exchange (the Totnes Pound).

So long as we pay our taxes in a freely and generally convertible medium it's not like we are prevented from choosing our own medium of exchange.

Government in general is 'socialist', so where economics allows (as in the UK to a degree) the nominal value of our convertible medium is secured.

The Cyprus situation isn't unpredictable - it's a tiny country that was used as an offshore tax haven for Russians. The holdings of the banks vastly outweighed the GDP of the country, so when they fucked up the country couldn't guarantee it.

What's the fuck up here? Nothing to do with the EU.

We should support it, as it's in our best interests to secure the medium of exchange, but only to a degree. Savers are effectively shareholders - that's why when building societies in the UK turned into banks everyone got shares - but it's quid pro quo.

If anything it's taught investors to be a bit more savvy. American Tea Party politics pays a price.

[Huguenot]

X-post Loz

[New Nexus]

It is a ?big surprise? to 70% of people in the UK according to

Ipsos MORI

?Who owns the money in your bank account? That small question has profound implications. According to a survey by Ipsos MORI, more than 70% of people in the UK believe that when they deposit money with the bank, it is theirs-but it is not.?

And it has just become a very ?big surprise? to the people of Cyprus who are enjoying an extended bank holiday until Thursday or maybe Friday.

Person to person loans are one thing, but bank accounts are completely different.

Depositing funds into a bank account and becoming a ?creditor? renders one subordinate to bond holders who have seniority, i.e. the people who deposit their cash in the bank become the last in the queue when the bank goes belly up.

[Huguenot]

You're right EP, New Nexus has suddenly found an opinion!

I think you're right in your assessment NN. It's been bizarre for everyone, but now the 'free cash' when the building society became a bank has become more real.

[????]

I can't think of a better way to start a run on the banks in say Italy/Greece/Portugal etc than the Germans saying we'll levy a 10% tax on all savings for the cost of bailing your banks out. Money will be flying into German banks from all Southern European economies as we speak, this then means that to counterbalance this the Germans have to buy more bonds in the southern european economies, a potential risk spiral not unlike, um, 2007......

idiot policy, by the clueless, in desperation........ a situation largely made by the Euro.

[Huguenot]

Well, first, no one has said that they need to give a levy. That's a Cypriot decision.

So F that German shite.

[Huguenot]

As usual, you will think I'm being pro-European. But I'm not. No-one in Europe had that idea.

[Huguenot]

Remember what I said? I'm not relentlessly pro-European. Just stop the bollocks and we'll get on fine.

[????]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, first, no one has said that they need to

> give a levy. That's a Cypriot decision.

>

> So F that German shite.

A cypriot decision?......This just demonstrates how little you read and understand about what is going on with the Euro.

That aside, my point s general, didn,t mention you once and largely reflected the commentary in the media in the UK and elsewhere. try and google Robert Peston on this nonsensical approach for instance .you been on the sauce dear boy, you seem very angry tonight or whatever hour it is in Raffles?

[LondonMix]

Err, what are you talking about. Buying Spanish bonds has nothing to do with the bank deposits. The ECB has already provided an unlimited 3 year liquidity facility to all European banks (including Spanish banks) to deal with disruptions in the wholesale funding market. Should deposits shrink, the same liquidity facility can and would be used as this would represent a liquidity rather than a solvency issue.

In addition to this, the Spanish banks are now the best capitalised banks in Europe with most of the small ones wound up, Bankia recapitalised etc. All of the troubled banks have had to transfer all of their troubled real estate assets to SAREB (similar to NAMA in Ireland). The total value of property and loans transferred totals 90b and these are no longer in the banks' balance sheet so future movements in real estate valuations etc can no longer erode their core capital.

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can't think of a better way to start a run on

> the banks in say Italy/Greece/Portugal etc than

> the Germans saying we'll levy a 10% tax on all

> savings for the cost of bailing your banks out.

> Money will be flying into German banks from all

> Southern European economies as we speak, this then

> means that to counterbalance this the Germans have

> to buy more bonds in the southern european

> economies, a potential risk spiral not unlike, um,

> 2007......

>

> idiot policy, by the clueless, in

> desperation........ a situation largely made by

> the Euro.

[Huguenot]

No, Quids. no.

Read the headlines today.

"Euro ministers urge Cyprus rethink".

This is NOT an EU decision. This is a Cyprus decision. The EU does NOT agree.

[New Nexus]

It does not matter now, I think Cyprus is finished. After the complete confusion of this levy, tax, haircut or stolen fund mismanagement, it looks like the under 100,000 will be protected i.e. no 6.7 tax, but the over 100,000 will now have to be tax at about 15% instead of the original 9.9%, it does not take an economist to workout that 1/3 of Cyprus bank deposits are going to be leaving the country ASAP. Cyprus may get through the bailout issue, only for it?s banks to collapse when billions of Russian euro?s start the flight to safer shores

[El Pibe]

This is all very terrestrial analysis, I'm liking New New Nexus :)

[StraferJack]

N?

[Huguenot]

Certainly Cyprus as an offshore banking haven has been seriously undermined.

However, Cyprus as a nation will be fine I suspect.