Cycling on Pavements

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It is going to be very interesting how the

> Highway

> > Code changes impact things. There was a lot

> made

> > by the cycle lobby that they now have right of

> way

> > at junctions etc over cars but what many failed

> to

> > mention is pedestrians now have right of way

> over

> > cyclists in the same situation.

>

> Rubbish, there is no priority for cyclists, all

> the new rules do is reiterate the need to treat

> cyclists with respect and don't cut them up or cut

> them off when they are vulnerable in the middle of

> the road (ie. treat them like a car).

>

> You really need to stop relying on the DM for your

> information.

>

> Rule H3:

>

> "You should not cut across cyclists going ahead

> when turning into or out of a junction or changing

> direction or lane, just as you would not turn

> across the path of another motor vehicle. This

> applies whether cyclists are using a cycle lane, a

> cycle track, or riding ahead on the road and you

> should give way to them.

>

> Do not turn at a junction if to do so would cause

> the cyclist going straight ahead to stop or

> swerve, just as you would do with a motor

> vehicle.

>

> You should stop and wait for a safe gap in the

> flow of cyclists if necessary. This includes when

> cyclists are:

>

> approaching, passing or moving off from a

> junction

> moving past or waiting alongside stationary or

> slow-moving traffic

> travelling around a roundabout?

>

> As for pedestrians, the old rules said that a

> pedestrian should be free to cross as long as they

> have started to cross (ignored by some drivers

> who beep or ram you when crossing the road).

>

> The new rules say that *waiting* pedestrians

> should be allowed to cross the road freely by

> stopping, zero chance of this happening with 99%

> of london drivers.

Redpost - thanks for going to further validate my point that many on the pro-cycle lobby seem to only want to focus on the changes to the rules for drivers in your predictably aggressive response.

You have further validated my point that there has been a lot of discussion about the additional, and welcome, protection the rule changes afford cyclists (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/30/two-in-three-uk-drivers-unaware-of-planned-highway-code-changes) but less on the fact that the same guidance now applies to cyclists in relation to pedestrians given the new hierarchy of road users.

You selectively clipped addition H3 from the new code but H2 is the part I am referring to (which refers to all road user including cyclists):

Rule H2

Rule for drivers, motorcyclists, horse drawn vehicles, horse riders and

cyclists

- At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a

road into which or from which you are turning.

- You MUST give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing, and to pedestrians

and cyclists on a parallel crossing (see Rule 195).

- Pedestrians have priority when on a zebra crossing, on a parallel crossing or at

light controlled crossings when they have a green signal.

- You should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross a zebra crossing, and to

pedestrians and cyclists waiting to cross a parallel crossing.

- Horse riders should also give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing, and to

pedestrians and cyclists on a parallel crossing

So cyclists now should give way to pedestrians at junctions.

So this is the point I was trying to highlight so it is was neither rubbish nor gleaned from the Daily Mail (a publication I do not read I hasten to add).

In the spirit of a conversation where it is clear some cyclists struggle to adhere to the rules about cycling on pavements one wonders how they might grasp the need to allow pedestrians to cross at junctions.

[redpost]

You said that "There was a lot made by the cycle lobby that they now have right of way at junctions etc over cars "

This is patent nonsense gleaned from the DM, cyclists follow the same rules at junctions at everyone else and have NO priority over cars

[Siduhe]

I had an interesting experience yesterday crossing OKR into a cycle only lane with a pedestrian crossing across the cycle lane bit. The pedestrian crossing across the cycle lane is light controlled, but I don't think that matters for the new highway code. Street View link below hopefully.

As the lights changed to green for cyclists to cross OKR, several pedestrians (one with a pram) crossed the cycle lane up ahead with their pedestrian light phase on red, so the lead cyclists stopped, with the result that those of us at the back were left in the road on OKR, as the cyclist lights changed from green to red, allowing all the heavy traffic on OKR to proceed right at us.

Needless to say the OKR traffic did not give way and we all had to pull left/right up on the pavement to be safe.

Am I missing something about the new Highway Code - does it apply even to a crossing point that is pedestrian light controlled or is it right that cyclists need to give way to waiting pedestrians at a crossing even when the pedestrian light is red? If it is, then I assume the answer is that the OKR traffic should have waited for us to wait for the pedestrians, but that feels...unlikely to happen in practice.

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You said that "There was a lot made by the cycle

> lobby that they now have right of way at junctions

> etc over cars "

>

> This is patent nonsense gleaned from the DM,

> cyclists follow the same rules at junctions at

> everyone else and have NO priority over cars

But Redpost - there was. As I made clear I try don't glean anything from the DM - but hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story hey!

Did you read the Guardian article I linked to: here's the headline and standfirst for your reading pleasure:

Two in three UK drivers unaware of planned Highway Code changes

Cycling group says key changes need to be clearly explained, as Labour claims ministers are ?missing in action?

The point I was making was that the cycle lobby have been pushing the narrative on what this means for the way drivers treat cyclists, and of course the cycle lobby are going to do that, but it is important for cyclists to also understand how they now need to treat pedestrians too.

Not sure why you can't just agree instead of trying to constantly deposition everything I say. It's exactly this type of attitude that annoys many about the way cyclists act and behave when dealing with others.

[Rockets]

Siduhe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I had an interesting experience yesterday crossing

> OKR into a cycle only lane with a pedestrian

> crossing across the cycle lane bit. The

> pedestrian crossing across the cycle lane is light

> controlled, but I don't think that matters for the

> new highway code. Street View link below

> hopefully.

>

> As the lights changed to green for cyclists to

> cross OKR, several pedestrians (one with a pram)

> crossed the cycle lane up ahead with their

> pedestrian light phase on red, so the lead

> cyclists stopped, with the result that those of us

> at the back were left in the road on OKR, as the

> cyclist lights changed from green to red, allowing

> all the heavy traffic on OKR to proceed right at

> us.

>

> Needless to say the OKR traffic did not give way

> and we all had to pull left/right up on the

> pavement to be safe.

>

> Am I missing something about the new Highway Code

> - does it apply even to a crossing point that is

> pedestrian light controlled or is it right that

> cyclists need to give way to waiting pedestrians

> at a crossing even when the pedestrian light is

> red? If it is, then I assume the answer is that

> the OKR traffic should have waited for us to wait

> for the pedestrians, but that feels...unlikely to

> happen in practice.

>

>

> 7,3a,75y,22.67h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snER672PT2-

> 7TdlbnF2PFAw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Siduhe - I think you're right (unless there are different rules for traffic lights) but the bikes would give-way to the pedestrians and the cars give way to the bikes and/or the pedestrians.

[legalalien]

I thought the new "give way to pedestrians waiting to cross" rule only applied to junctions that vehicles/ bikes were turning into or out of. So they wouldn't apply where the vehicle or bike is going straight ahead - I don't think. unless there's a zebra crossing?

Although from this document, the driver version of the rule doesn't seem consistent with the pedestrian version of teh rule tbh.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041273/the-highway-code-alteration-to-the-highway-code.pdf

[devs]

Wondering...who has right of way at the Court Lane Park gates?. Cyclist and pedestrians share the pavement gates but cyclists often whiz through in the morning, ring bells and expecting walkers to jump out of their way.

[JohnL]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought the new "give way to pedestrians waiting

> to cross" rule only applied to junctions that

> vehicles/ bikes were turning into or out of. So

> they wouldn't apply where the vehicle or bike is

> going straight ahead - I don't think. unless

> there's a zebra crossing?

>

> Although from this document, the driver version of

> the rule doesn't seem consistent with the

> pedestrian version of teh rule tbh.

>

> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen

> t/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041

> 273/the-highway-code-alteration-to-the-highway-cod

> e.pdf

You always have to give way to pedestrians in the road (even if they are totally illegally crossing)

(Otherwise you are running them down :) )

If they are standing by the side of the road and you are unsure - proceed very very slowly I think

[KidKruger]

I remember crossing the road at Aldgate, looking to my right (as you do, in the UK), stepping out as I saw a gap in the traffic.

The THWACK I?m on the road, semi-conscious, being helped-up by passers by.

Some fool was cycling the wrong way along the kerb at speed and I had no chance !

I always look both ways now !

[Waseley]

There is a rational discussion about cycling, why some cycle on pavements and how this can best be discouraged.

Sadly most comments are from those that don't like cyclists, and is rather reactionary.

Most cyclists don't regularly ride on the pavement, don't jump lights, and have lights at night. There are many joys in cycling and other good reasons to cycle, health, convenience, cost, the environment.

Some competent cyclists have no excuse, some less confident cyclists are worried about road safety, some are sticking up two fingers to society. Particularly frustrating are those parents with children competent enough to cycle on the road.

Driver behaviour has much to do with this and there is a need both to accept cyclists as road users and give them space, moderate your speed and share the road.

[ed26]

>

> Most cyclists don't regularly ride on the

> pavement, don't jump lights, and have lights at

> night.

2/3. Must try harder. I don't buy the argument that most cyclists don't jump lights. Maybe when there's a huge group of cyclists at a major crossing, most will wait for the lights. But at any pedestrian crossing or minor junction, fewer than half of cyclists will stop.

I don't have a big issue with cycling on the pavement itself, as long as it's sensible. It's far safer for everyone if a cyclist rides slowly and carefully on a pavement than the wrong way down a one way street for example. When I take the kids to the park, I let them cycle on the pavement but they understand that pedestrians take priority. They wait behind people walking until it's safe to cycle past. And I don't let them cycle on busy pavements like Lordship Lane. They either get off and push (or make me carry the bike - grrr) or we go up one of the quieter streets.

Ringing a bell at pedestrians on a pavement or shared pavement/cycle path is pretty much like a car driving down a cycle path and beeping the horn to tell cyclists to get out of the way. Neither is acceptable.

[Nigello]

The problem with saying ?as long as it?s sensible? is that who is defining it? Laws are clear and applicable to all and have been drawn up after research and other inputs.

My sensible may be different from anyone else?s.

Best to follow the rules, which stacks of nice Village types don?t do when they belt along the pavement from the Dog to the park when the roads are clear and have cycle-accommodating markings in parts.

It?s just selfishness and stems from folk think they?re being ?sensible? and responsible.

[Nigello]

I also don?t ever see most cyclists stopping at lights, unless at big junctions where the presence of fellow cyclists also perhaps stops them from going through reds. Accidents happen so quickly and if you always stop and wait you will very likely never get into a junction-related accident. It stands to reason that if you think ?well, I?ve always done this so it has to be ok this time? you?ll get caught out sooner or later.

[Beulah]

I'm an Evil Cyclist and will occasionally ride on the pavement when I think it's safer.

My kids are competent enough to ride on the road, but will ride on the footway when I think it's dangerous not to.

That's in my discretion and no-one else's.

Worth noting pavement cycling is supported by advice from The National Police Chiefs' Council dating back several years.

I know we don't like dealing with grey areas on here but there are plenty of footways that are shared use.

So it's not always as straightforward as some would like.

AFAIK there is no such thing as "right of way" on the road, better to think of it as "priority".

It's usually the more vulnerable the road user the more priority they have.

So as mentioned before, pedestrians are allowed to be in the road - it's the responsibility of other road users, including cyclists, not to endanger them.

Glad to see cyclists have returned to being public enemy number one rather than scooters.

Enjoy the traffic jams :-)

[KidKruger]

I?m not sure anyone is saying cyclists are ?evil?.

More, they?re commenting on the irritation of encountering cyclists on pavements.

Just like other seemingly irresponsible behaviours such as dog owners not clearing up their dog?s poo, drivers speeding unnecessarily, not wearing masks in shops, etc.

[Nigello]

Beulah - only cyclists doing wrong things are public enemy. It is ok for kids to be on pavements, so no problem there, but you do not have discretion to alter the law as you see fit. I hope you don't ever cause an accident - the guilt of that would seriously damage you, but not as much as it would any pavement-strolling innocent.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

ed26 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> Ringing a bell at pedestrians on a pavement or

> shared pavement/cycle path is pretty much like a

> car driving down a cycle path and beeping the horn

> to tell cyclists to get out of the way. Neither is

> acceptable.

You have people (not you) moaning about "children ringing bicycle bells" and then you have people moaning "oh, these cyclists just sneak up on you without ringing a bell, why are they so rude?"

See for example the comments at the bottom of https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answers/highway-code-for-cyclists

[Rockets]

And it's clear from the Highway Code you linked to DKHB that no cyclists should be using footpaths:

Section 64

Something that confuses many cyclists is whether or not they are allowed to cycle on the pavement. According to Laws HA 1835 section 72 & RSA 1984, section 129, cyclists must not cycle on the pavement.

[Nigello]

As for those who insist it is a myth to say that plenty of cyclists don't go through reds - in the space of 10 seconds, three did just that, even when they have their own dinky little lights and sequencing, at D Village. Spend all that money and see what you get...

[CPR Dave]

Beulah demonstrates perfectly how selfish these people are.

[Nigello]

No, she is living her best life and being unapologetically etc. etc. etc. zzzz

[tom1975]

I would like to invite Nigello, CPR Dave, Rockets and anyone else to join me next Wednesday on the school cycle run from ED to Dulwich so you can all experience what it's like to ride in London beside buses and cars. I think it would be enjoyable and educational for you and hopefully reduce the amount of hostility you feel towards cyclists. The only way to improve the impression you have is to join in the experience for yourself and learn from it.

We will commute to my childs school and then continue to my office north of the West End. That includes going up Dog Kennel hill at decent speed then past Kings and through Camberwell, onto Elephant Castle and Waterloo, all in peak-hour traffic. I hope you're of reasonable fitness because I need to be at work for 9:15am.

You can make your own way home and we'll meet the morning after to repeat the journey and discuss what you've learnt and why cyclists may choose to jump red lights to remain safe and why children ride on the footpath.

Anyone interested can meet me on the corner of Friern Rd and Goodrich Rd at 8:20am next Wednesday.

[ed26]

I hope you're of reasonable fitness

> because I need to be at work for 9:15am.

>

Smug alert....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c

[first mate]

Do you seriously believe that not one of those you mention has ever cycled? Seriously?

tom1975 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would like to invite Nigello, CPR Dave, Rockets

> and anyone else to join me next Wednesday on the

> school cycle run from ED to Dulwich so you can all

> experience what it's like to ride in London beside

> buses and cars. I think it would be enjoyable and

> educational for you and hopefully reduce the

> amount of hostility you feel towards cyclists. The

> only way to improve the impression you have is to

> join in the experience for yourself and learn from

> it.

>

> We will commute to my childs school and then

> continue to my office north of the West End. That

> includes going up Dog Kennel hill at decent speed

> then past Kings and through Camberwell, onto

> Elephant Castle and Waterloo, all in peak-hour

> traffic. I hope you're of reasonable fitness

> because I need to be at work for 9:15am.

>

> You can make your own way home and we'll meet the

> morning after to repeat the journey and discuss

> what you've learnt and why cyclists may choose to

> jump red lights to remain safe and why children

> ride on the footpath.

>

> Anyone interested can meet me on the corner of

> Friern Rd and Goodrich Rd at 8:20am next

> Wednesday.

[Rockets]

tom1975 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would like to invite Nigello, CPR Dave, Rockets

> and anyone else to join me next Wednesday on the

> school cycle run from ED to Dulwich so you can all

> experience what it's like to ride in London beside

> buses and cars. I think it would be enjoyable and

> educational for you and hopefully reduce the

> amount of hostility you feel towards cyclists. The

> only way to improve the impression you have is to

> join in the experience for yourself and learn from

> it.

>

> We will commute to my childs school and then

> continue to my office north of the West End. That

> includes going up Dog Kennel hill at decent speed

> then past Kings and through Camberwell, onto

> Elephant Castle and Waterloo, all in peak-hour

> traffic. I hope you're of reasonable fitness

> because I need to be at work for 9:15am.

>

> You can make your own way home and we'll meet the

> morning after to repeat the journey and discuss

> what you've learnt and why cyclists may choose to

> jump red lights to remain safe and why children

> ride on the footpath.

>

> Anyone interested can meet me on the corner of

> Friern Rd and Goodrich Rd at 8:20am next

> Wednesday.

Tom, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Used to cycle from East Dulwich to Hammersmith for work and DKH was a great way to start and finish my journey - the thigh-burn! I used to love cycling to work it was a great way to start the day - 45 minutes of cycling through some lovely parts of London. I hasten to add, I deliberately cycled routes to avoid the busiest roads.

Red light jumpers used to annoy me when I cycled because so few cyclists seemed to believe they applied to them - often they would take very vocal offence that I had actually stopped for red lights - sometimes there wasn't much bonhomie between supposed like-minded individuals.

Some cyclists believe rules don't apply to them and, as per this thread demonstrates, there is a problem that needs addressing.