Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[buggie]

Blimey!!

Agree with everything Pickle's said on this & amazed at the level of v v deep thought going on - surely encouraging breadth and enjoyment of reading is more important at pre-school/primary age?

As Pickle has suggested, I too worry children could be put off reading if de-briefing/critiquing was required after every tale, I think I would hope that by reading a mix of books Bugglet would be able to form and express her own opinions (and I look forward to hearing them) and that could trigger conversation.

We have the Nick Sharratt version, where Cinders only agrees to marry the prince if he'll share the household chores

:-) maybe it's an age thing, but her "favourites" in books change on a week by week basis (apart from 'The Cat in the Hat' which has been read nightly for so long she can finish nearly every line!). Resisting her choice of books to read it would make a much bigger deal of it.

I'm all for the un-pinkification of girls, but think if in life you demonstrate in life the values you aspire for them, then the occasional fairy tale or request to dress as a fairy won't cause the creation of a submissive & brow beaten adult.

No matter their reading material, yourselves as parents will still be their number one role model.

[hellosailor]

buggie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> I'm all for the un-pinkification of girls, but

> think if in life you demonstrate in life the

> values you aspire for them, then the occasional

> fairy tale or request to dress as a fairy won't

> cause the creation of a submissive & brow beaten

> adult.

>

> No matter their reading material, yourselves as

> parents will still be their number one role model.

good point, couldn't agree more Buggie

[radhabee]

I'm sure most people (even on this thread!) would support reading wide-ranging subjects, styles and stories for their children. What is difficult is the fact that toys are increasingly gendered - eg the creation of pink Lego for girls - so it's increasingly hard (for parents, children) to actually make a 'non-pink' choice. There's an interesting org called Pink Stinks http://www.pinkstinks.org.uk/ that campaigns in this area.

Agree that parents are the number one role model for their children but peer influence, desire to conform and brands that market to children are also very powerful.

[bluesuperted]

This is a very interesting thread - and I agree with Radhabee's analysis - yes we are massively important as parents but there is a very pink and blue world out there that bombards our little ones from day one. I think I am aware of/over sensitive to/attempting to deviate from the gender stereotypes and I hadn't actually thought of the Cinderella story along these lines despite my son loving a really old fashioned pop up version of the story... I think this is because these fairy stories, which become leit motifs in the storytelling we meet time and time again through life, are so ingrained you sometimes can't see the wood for the (enchanted!) trees...

[RenF]

Not sure anyone has been suggesting a debrief/critique after story time...

I guess what I was getting at was the idea of teaching my daughter not just to accept everything at face value. Sometimes, yes we can just have a story as a nice story. Other times we could look at it from ther angles. I think most parents who read with their children would have discussions like this anyway.

[cashewnut]

I'm with the people who are worried about this. (Following this thread earlier but I'd forgotten my password so couldn't contribute from work.)

I can't see how discussing what's in a book would put children off reading. It doesn't have to be heavy-handed, or limited to situations where there are dubious messages coming from the story. Surely it adds to the interest/interactivity of reading together.

I'm also not convinced by these stories of kids who didn't have any guns going out and playing with sticks etc. My brother didn't have any guns at home and he never seemed to miss them or make do with other objects for violent role play. I wasn't given dolls/pink stuff by my parents and didn't crave them or have any kind of princess-rebellion. I can see how an explicit ban could be counter-productive but you do have a certain amount of control over what's in the house right? (Maybe I'm being naive as I don't have experience beyond toddler-dom yet)

And I think it's easy to be complacent about what impact these things might have. I have often been amazed/depressed by the attitude of many of my well-educated ambitious friends towards marriage. You would almost think they'd been brought up reading stories where every female role model married a prince and lived happily ever after.

edited to add - crossed posts with RenF there

[Monkey]

What Pickle says... Not a worry at all in our household.

We read lots of anti princess stories because they balance things out a bit : the paperbag princess, the worst princess, the princess and the peas etc...

[BellendenBear]

I have 2 girls and was determined to avoid too much of the pink and princess influences. When pregnant with the first I initially set a no pink rule. This quickly changed to 10% then 30% when I realised that I was fighting a losing battle. 4 years later we sometimes have enough pink clothes to do a pink wash. It's hideous, I feel like I'm self-harming when I hang the clothes out.

What strikes me is that we have regressed over the years. As a child of late 70s / 80s I'm sure it wasn't like this then, at least not in our house. When my daughters were born we were inundated with candyfloss pink 'girly' cards and gifts. My Mum still has the cards she received after my birth in 1976. There's only one pink one and inside there is an apology for sending something so tasteless.

On balance, I now take a slightly more pragmatic approach along the lines of Pickle's. My head is still firmly in the 'Pink Stinks' camp, but my heart doesn't want my girls to feel left out. So I allow much more of the pink princess fairy stuff, I just don't encourage it.

[WorkingMummy]

In reply to Monkey:

Yes, but a lot of those anti-princess books clearly say, "This girl, she's s bit bad." Which I've no beef with. But by definition, it can't counteract the problem with Cinderella, which is clearly a morality tale, which says Cinderella is GOOD, to the point of virtue, because she is kind to people who abuse her.

That morality is b/s. I'm not into leaving my kids with b/s morals.

With 98% of books that come through this house (chosen by the girls at the library, while I'm at work) I like them, I don't like them, doesn't matter. I read them. The girls go for it, or not, end of. But this Cinderella baaaallocks just leapt off the page at me last night. It's just too much shite for me to let go without comment.

(They picked it out again tonight! I read it. I told them - again - very briefly, it's hogwash. Never let yourself be treated like that girls. Took literally three seconds. Then onto "Charlene loves to make noise" also at their instigation.)

As it happens, I'm less fussed about pink clothes than I am about this.

[susyp]

Whereas I normally agree with everything working mummy posts , on this one I am with pickle. My daughter was a complete tomboy until aged 3 she found Snow White and now I defy anyone to have a more princess obsessed child! And I mean obsessed. I am surprised but I love that it gives her a fantasy world to retreat to. I wish I had one! She likes the dresses and the hair and the balls, not so much the princes. She wears a princess dress constantly at home. And recently she has even succeeded In getting me out of my standard stripy top and jeans

Combo mum outfit by being so excited when I wore a dress that I immediately went out and got some more! And yes, she was rapunzel for world book day.

She is very bolshy and got in trouble last week for whacking a boy who called her a name ! I wasn't remotely into princesses when a child but was very shy and submissive. I really don't feel that they take gender lessons from the books as much as from life. I work, my husband looks after her in the week. No gender stereotype there and I'm proud that I have returned to work, I was proud to be at home too !

Susyp

[Pickle]

In reply to Cashewnut:

"I can see how an explicit ban could be counter-productive but you do have a certain amount of control over what's in the house right? (Maybe I'm being naive as I don't have experience beyond toddler-dom yet"

Yes, you have control over what's in the house, but once they hit school age you don't have control over what they're exposed to. Toilet roll tubes and Lego become swords and guns, sticks and leaves are bows and arrows, a green circle sellotaped to the wrist is a Ben10 watch. There's absolutely no way you can stop it IMO.

[Belle]

This is a really interesting thread. I too have noticed my son saying 'that's for girls/this is for boys' since nursery/pre-school and of course I do remind him that this is not the case, like Otta I say 'toys are for everyone' etc.

Like the fact that a couple of people have pointed out that boys are part of this learning too - i.e. if we're going to show girls that life isn't all about marrying a prince etc, boys shouldn't be left out of that lesson either. Having said that, having 2 boys the princessy thing hasn't come up much ie not had the situation workingmummy mentioned of unwanted gifts etc. There was a phase when my son loved dressing up in his friend's princess dresses which of course I in my liberal guardianista way LOVED but equally happy with the superhero obsession which has succeeded this. His chosen birthday present was a Baby Annabell doll, but then this closely followed christmas for which he'd requested (and received) a Ben 10 watch.

I was all about princesses and dollies when I was little. When I got a bit older, my parents tried to get me to read Swallows and Amazons (I'm named after a character, thank goodness not Titty), but I objected and preferred Anne of Green Gables, Little Women etc. And now I am 100% a feminist to the point that I didn't give up my name when I got married, my kids have both our names, my marriage is as equal as I can imagine it could be. (NB not saying for a single second feminism is about our names and what we do with them! just making the point that we don't necessarily replicate what we learnt as children, when we grow up.)

I do hate barbie culture and what it potentially does to girls' self-image, I think I hate those Bratz dolls more though...

[WorkingMummy]

In reply to Pickle.

100% agree, it can't be stopped.

But neither can I.

I've never read Snow White or Sleeping Beauty to my kids. (I'm sure it's only a matter of time.) But if/when I do, I know I won't be able to stop myself saying, "She's asleep! He's never met her! How does he know she wants to be kissed, by him? What a nerve."

As a young lawyer, yonks ago, I was involved in a criminal case a LOT like that.

These stories, they are not quaint and old fashioned. And this is bigger than pink. This is about right and wrong.

IMO

[LondonMix]

I think Cinderella being kind to those who mistreat her is more of a Christian virtue sort of thing more than a good girls are weak message. Whether you buy into that is a totally different story but I can't see the role gender specifically plays in that element of the story at all.

I think one element missing from all of this is that different children genuinely have different personalities and are attracted to different things. My two neices couldn't be more different from each other. One loves princesses / dresses / make-up / magic / barbies while the other is what most people would call a "tom boy". Their parents have neither encouraged nor discouraged either personality type because thye believe its an organic expression of who these girls are as people. Nothing at all is shameful or wrong about a girl or boy liking to play with barbies / liking pink etc. Nothing is inherently better about a child wanting to play with trucks.

There was an article the other day saying that some rediculously high number of girls self-identify as tom-boys (maybe 35%) whereas there is still a lot of shame surrounding boys who express an inclination towards what society considers "feminine".

[WorkingMummy]

Christian or not, not for me to say.

It's not the definition of goodness I would choose to pass on to my children, girls or boy. If you are bring mistreated, work out your options, be smart, get help, find allies. Resist!

To me, it's basic.

[Otta]

This thread has gone a bit mental since my last visit!

What buggie said. She is wise.

[LondonMix]

I agree with you there WM. I just don't see the gender element. It's more of a christian parable than a reflection on women per se. It comes up over and over again not just in fairy tales but in Western literature and the bible itself. Charity (in the classical sense of the word) is seen as the highest of the Christian virtues (wiki extract below):

Generosity, charity, self-sacrifice; the term should not be confused with the more restricted modern use of the word charity to mean benevolent giving. In Christian theology, charity?or love (ag?p?) -- is the greatest of the three theological virtues.

Love, in the sense of an unlimited loving kindness towards all others, is held to be the ultimate perfection of the human spirit, because it is said to both glorify and reflect the nature of God. Such love is self-sacrificial. Confusion can arise from the multiple meanings of the English word "love". The love that is "caritas" is distinguished by its origin ? being divinely infused into the soul ? and by its residing in the will rather than emotions, regardless of what emotions it stirs up. This love is necessary for salvation, and with it no one can be lost.

Edited to Add: I also agree with Buggie.

[WorkingMummy]

Sorry, lost me there....

[LondonMix]

Cinderella being nice to people regardless of whether they deserve it is a reflection of the highest virtue in Christianity and is a theme not just in Western fairy tales but in Western literature. If the only thing you can see is a tale of a girl being weak in that story, my guess is its because you tend to see most things in gendered terms rather than because that's what the story is about.

[canela]

Going back to what cashewnut said about if there are no guns in the house then boys will not want to go out and hit people with sticks....

my male cousin - also brought up on the v feminist and women's circle scene - was not allowed any kind of "violent" toy. in fact, my aunt would go on about how proud she was that he loved playing with dolls. well, once he'd left home they cleaned out his bedroom and found at the back of the wardrobe a secret stash of swords....

[WorkingMummy]

Ok, LondonMix. But then, I don't dig what you are saying about love, I think.

But I've already decided not to send the children to church/Sunday School and have no appetite to debate the R word tonight.

[LondonMix]

I don't agree with it either as such! I'm not Christian. However these messages permeate all elements of Western culture includig fairy tales.

[WorkingMummy]

Gotcha. Sorry. Slow.

[LondonMix]

I think Canela's post hits the nail on the head. Culture plays a part but in truth you can't stop children from being who they want to be. I got barbies and never played with them. I just wasn't that kind of girl. Trying to prevent a little girl who likes playing with barbies from doing so would have been as futile as trying to get me to play with one when I was little. Let kids be who they want to be while living the reality / values you want them to adopt.

[WorkingMummy]

I agree.

But for me (and maybe this is partly because I am a lawyer) if a story depicts a crime (as many fairy tales do, and not always just by the baddy) and then prescribes a "virtuous" response, which is b/s (turn the other cheek or whatever), what is wrong in saying so?

That's all.