Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[WorkingMummy]

Redjam, I found your observation, about a page back, about the powerless position of children, and that being the source of the strength of their connection with Cinderella type figures, very interesting. That had not occurred to me at all. But I am still troubled because Cinderella is but one of many equally powerful stories which come back from Minute Library with my kids each week, in which the heroine (always female) embodies the virtues which I have described and wish to reject as paradigms for my own children (girls and boy).

There are of course different female characters, in more modern children's stories. Chez nous, this week, we have as a new entrant Charlene from "Charlene Loves to Make Noise". But those stories seem very different, to me at least. Charlene is not legendary. I?m pretty sure that my kids sense that Cinderella is being held out them as something other just another ordinary little girl from another ordinary street. I have not heard a good counter-argument to this: Cinderella self-presents as a morality tale.

And I have to say, I think that presentation works. I FULLY understand the chorus of "Naaahhhhhh! Give over!" I have in fact grown slightly embarrassed of my own position in the face of it. But I think (hope at least) that I am not bunkering down reactively when I say: I think that chorus is a tad naive.

We humans are creatures of language. Story telling is important to us. And myths play a role in our culture and in our minds which makes them more influential than other stories. This is not academic nor far-fetched to me. Many have said, "I was raised like this, and I am alright." Good for you. Ultimately, I?m very alright too. But as I think I have said already, my own experience as a young woman was that it was far from easy - even in my adult relationships - to get away from the principles of female virtue which were planted in my head (including via mythology) when I was a child. Sometimes I struggle with that stuff a little even now.

SOOOOO, I shall be reading ?Die Schonsten Marchen der Gebruder Grimm? to my children on demand, same as I always have. When it comes to a myth like Cinderella, which I see my little girls swallow right down, all I?ll be saying is, "You know what, I don't buy this, kids." Can't believe that this is - in truth - a controversial idea!

I've found the range of views in this thread very helpful in forming my own.

WM

PS: John K, if you really want to know we currently have no fewer than six versions of the Cinderella story in our house. (This is perhaps further evidence of the story's power.) We have the Disney DVD, two texts in German and written versions in English by: Amanda Askew; Gaby Goldsack; and a particularly revolting pink version contained in "Princess Stories", printed by priddypress. In all, the central elements are the same. They are pretty simple. I?m not sure they bear bespectacled textural analysis...

[buggie]

Who'd have thought when you wanted it all to kick off a few weeks back

that all you'd need to do is talk about fairy stories ;)

See you at Chris & Pui again?!

Otta Wrote:

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> I think the idea of "ugly sisters" is that they're

> meant to be ugly inside.

[JulieP]

edhistory Wrote:

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> On the more general point of "pink", "fairy" and

> "princess" books, my experience is that young

> girls rapidly lose interest when they reach around

> seven years old.

>

> John K

Agree with this. My daughter went through the princess / only wearing pink stage starting about age 3. This got worse after starting school. Now aged 6 and a half, she is much more rounded and has many interests in terms of what she plays and reads. She is equally happy playing with barbies as playing pirates and it has been ages since the "princess" dresses saw the light of day.

[Otta]

buggie Wrote:

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> Who'd have thought when you wanted it all to kick

> off a few weeks back

> that all you'd need to do is talk about fairy

> stories ;)

> See you at Chris & Pui?

I know, this is gold.

Yeah, hoping to do C&P...

[The Nappy Lady]

Well at 43 I'm still loving princess stories & happy to go out wearing something pink & sparkly ....with pride.

Then again I also love to go clubbing with my gay male friends, so I blame it on them!

There is no hope for my 2 girls.

Bad, bad Mummy.

[reren]

I can sort of understand the angst - particularly wanting to protect little girls from living in a world of commercial Disney pink - but I have to say I think worrying too much about the Cinderella story misses the complexities of growing up. I loved Cinderella - and spent many happy hours with my grandmother sweeping the hearth with her pretending to be the ugly stepsisters - for some reason I liked dramatizing that bit rather than the finale of finding the shoe and getting the prince? As I grew up I became more and more of a feminist - and I find it quite easy to reconcile the career woman, main bread winner, feminist I have become with the little girl who loved Cinderella. Fairy stories have been part of our culture from time immemorial - every culture in the world has a version of the Cinderella story (granted our Disney version is a pretty drippy sanitized one compared to more ancient versions where death, mutilation and virginity were much more prominent elements of the tale!) but personally I think (some) little girls love pink and princesses for a while, but it doesn't automatically make them passive or weak - and they are just as likely to go onto having a phase of tomboyness. To me the far far more important role model is their mother and father - and how they share roles and responsibilities, childcare and work. Where parents share this equally - I think little girls and boys grow up to expect that from their own lives and relationships - whatever their interest in Disney/ Cinderella as a child.

[Saffron]

katgod Wrote:

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> Hmmmm cannot help thinking that if we applied the

> 'Syrian mothers test' to most of the EDF it would

> pretty quickly close.

The obsevation was not meant to "close" the dialogue. It was actually a positive observation about what a good place and time our children are growing up in, that we have the comparative luxury of being able to discuss such things as the minutiae of Cinderella etc.

(But what you say is nevertheless very likely true! ;-) )

[Saffron]

The Nappy Lady Wrote:

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> Well at 43 I'm still loving princess stories &

> happy to go out wearing something pink & sparkly

> ....with pride.

>

> Then again I also love to go clubbing with my gay

> male friends, so I blame it on them!

>

:)

[Smiler]

"> Plus, I don't think it's necessary or even useful

> to stereotype girls who do like pink, dressing as

> fairies etc, as conforming to what some adults

> possibly perceive as a media-driven frenzy of

> thinly-velied antifeminism. Being feminine --in

> whatever form be it pink or otherwise-- does not

> necessarily relate to being subservient........"

Dressing in pink does/should not equate to being "feminine"!

[Smiler]

My 5yo and I recently saw cinderella at the rose theatre kingston, where they had modernised it a bit: Cinders was much less subservient, argued with her father and stepmother and was going to leave, became friends with the prince early on, no marriage at the end (just a kiss and dance) etc.

[Otta]

Smiler Wrote:

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> Dressing in pink does/should not equate to being

> "feminine"!

Absolutely right, but equally, blokes in pink need to take a good long look at themselves!

[LondonMix]

I like a man who can pull off pink.

[Worker]

Blokes in pink, sparkly dresses maybe Otta, but pink is OK in a shirt.

Got me thinking that most of the posts in this thread focus on the impact of these stories on girls, but as a bloke and father of a bloke, I think their impact on boys is also important i.e. that they're presented with strong female characters.

[TillieTrotter]

My daughter turned into a princess around the age of 3. She wore princess dresses and a tutu more or less constantly for a good 2/3 years and played with her barbies whilst watching Disney films all the time. Aged about 6/7, the gaggle of barbies looked like they had joined Siouxie and the Banshees, she'd chopped their hair off, coloured it all shades of black and blue and they all had black lips and ripped clothes.

She's now 23, and has been in and out of uni and I'd say she's quite princessy again. She loves her make up and her sense of style (edwardian at the mo!!) but boy, if any male took her for a passive, girly girl they'd be in for a shock.

Edited to add. I think the greatest role model for a little girl is her mum. If she has a ballsy, intelligent mother (and you all sound like you'd fit that description) then she will no doubt turn out the way you hope she will.

[midivydale]

Re dressing in pink. It should of course not equate to "being girly and feminine". I agree but it often does. I would never dream of dressing in anything pink at work.

Otta- my hubby does look V V hot in a pink shirt under a sharp suit I have to say:).

X

[TillieTrotter]

She's still a Disney character, just one of the stronger, more assertive types. This is from book day at the school she's teaching in.

[WorkingMummy]

I agree about mothers being role models for girls (and boys?) but you can't ignore thousands of years of tradition of story telling as a means of communicating values to children.

And to make this point for me, at bedtime tonight I read (again!) the version of Cinderella which inspired my OP: Amanda Askew's work (i use the term loosely) in which Cinders is particularly meek and forlorn looking. I noticed for the first time this evening, right at the back, a page entitled "Notes for Parents and Teachers". There is then a list of questions for discussion.

The last question states:

"Cinderella is hard-working and is rewarded by the Fairy Godmother. Ask the Children what jobs they could do at home and what rewards they could receive."

I kid you not.

There is absolutely no spin, no satire, no angle on the modern-standard version of the tale in this book. Take it from me, where the question says, "hard working", read "obedient domestic slave". (It's straight up, unpaid labour with "nothing but scraps" for Cinderella to eat and in which "only when evening came was she allowed to sit for a while by the fire, near the cinders".) For "reward" read (of course) "a frock and a husband" (whom there is no reference to Cinder's actually having wanted or asked for).

If Cashewnut, I and others are in a minority in believing that fables/mythological stories of this kind carry moral and social messages, it is at least a minority which includes the publishers of this book.

The message, "scrub the floors and you'll live in a clean house" I wouldn't mind.

This book was published for the first time in 2010.

[TillieTrotter]

I see what you mean but that's just one book. And I'm definitely in the camp of exposing them to all, including negative things and discussing it. I mentioned this thread to said daughter and she said parents need to be careful not to suppress their daughters femininity and to make sure you don't get that mixed up with feminist ideals.

[WorkingMummy]

Tillie I'm not in the ban and censor camp either. If I were, this book would have vanished on Monday. My 2 yo old picked this book out for herself at the library. I'm not making a big thing of it being crap, as I don't want her to feel like she shouldn't like whatever she likes. And the library would be no fun if they couldn't choose their own stuff.

We have lots of Cinderella at the moment, all if it pretty shite. Askew's version is by no means far-out. It's typical. It's only the explicit comment/question at the end which marks it out.

[TE44]

WM you say you are not making a big thing of it being crap, but it does

seem to be a big thing for you.I think i'd be more worried my conceern would

cause confusion. I'm sure you said earlier you've discussed things whilst reading it.

Your children will encounter many gender stereotypes in life and meet people who have been

abused, but as children the innocence of liking a story, without

having to think of all that shit, should be celebrated.

[midivydale]

I am going to the library to get cinders tomorrow, sounds even worse than I remember it.

X

[WorkingMummy]

TE44 Wrote:

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> WM you say you are not making a big thing of it

> being crap, but it does

> seem to be a big thing for you.I think i'd be more

> worried my conceern would

> cause confusion. I'm sure you said earlier you've

> discussed things whilst reading it.

> Your children will encounter many gender

> stereotypes in life and meet people who have been

> abused, but as children the innocence of liking a

> story, without

> having to think of all that shit, should be

> celebrated.

I have not made a big deal of it bring crappy TO MY DAUGHTERS (not shouting, can't do italics). A big deal, to them, would be hiding/removing the book, refusing to read it. I haven't done those things.

Yes I made a comment a couple of days back. It didn't confuse them. Everyone is allowed their own tastes/thoughts in this house. My 2 year old knows that Mummy doesn't think that much of this book. My comment hasn't stopped her from asking me to read it each night since Monday, nor from enjoying it herself.

[Otta]

to do italics

You need to type (without the spaces) at the start, and (without spaces) at the end.

Swap i for b for bold.

[WorkingMummy]

Thank you Otta.

[Smiler]

Oh dear re the bit for discussion at the end, although a small part of me wouldn't mind working hard (for a little while at least, obviously in a comfy office not a kitchen) to be visited by a kindly fairy godmother rewarding me with a glam frock and handsome prince!

If she could turn up at about 10.30 tomorrow morning that'd be nice!