Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[WorkingMummy]

My daughters came home from the library today with another stack of princess books.

My girls are 4 and 2. They used to be totally disinterested in pink, passive "heroine" stories, and still their tastes are pretty catholic. But it's an interest which is growing very rapidly.

I'm not really comfortable with this. Here's (partly) why:

http://m.voices.yahoo.com/cinderella-fairytale-why-its-bad-little-girls-630658.html

Anyone else concerned?

[anna_r]

It does worry me a bit and Disney recognise the fact too, which is why the most recent Disney films aimed at girls have much more feisty, independent women eg princess and the frog, tangled and brave.

[shaunag]

Not concerned at all. Don't think that article is fair. Cinderella is kind to everyone and her goodness is why she succeeds and even has a fairy godmother. It teaches kindness. It teaches that it is ok to be timid good things can still happen to you. There are lots of timid little girls that get pushed around, and the story suggests that an end will come to being pushed around. I don't think everyone has to be balshy and brave, it's ok to be shy too. It is also just a fairy tale. If you are worried about story content to that extent you might end up with no stories left, no cartoons, no make believe heroes that do thinks at certain times of the year. It's just make believe that adds a bit of magic. There are plenty of other heroines that are strong and brave. I think balance is fine. Understand that you are feeling protective though. If they are enjoying their princess phase let them enjoy it while they are so young. Reality can come later.

[WorkingMummy]

I look ahead at friends' older children, and I wonder when the end will come.

I don't have a problem with magic and make believe - not at all. And I understand where you are coming from Shaunag. My mum (whose advice I call on very frequently) would say something very similar.

But it is exactly what you like about the story that I dislike. I think to call Cinderella timid or shy doesn't really cover it. She is abused. And what the story pushes forward as her "goodness" is actually her passivity and submission to that abuse - her sweetness in the face of evil. Kindness is good, when directed wisely. Passivity and submission to emotional and physical tranny, not so good. And what you see/the story pushes as a reward, I see as the swapping of one, tyrannical totalitarian dictator (step-mother) for another (ostensibly) more benevolent one (prince charming). (In fact, the story ends before we find out if he is or isn't a kind master. All we know is he is the agent, she is passive, and they marry immediately, without any reference to her will or options.)

I am concerned about the strength this story carries and I'm not sure what to do. My girls have a broad mix of stories available to them - we read a lot of Dahl for example. But nothing captures their imagination like this one.

The strength of the Disney image is also extraordinary. A birthday present from a friend last year was a little micro bendy plastic version of disney's Cinderella, which is just the perfect size to carry around in their little hands. It's like a little idol to them. There is nothing else so captivating to them in their toy box.

[Worker]

Where in the story is Prince Charming a tyrannical totalitarian dictator?

[WorkingMummy]

Where is he not?

He is from a dynasty who gets to command all virgin women to attend the palace inmediately (that very night) so that he can have his pick of them for his wife. He takes his pick. She runs away. He issues a royal proclamation that she will be found and that he WILL marry her.

[WorkingMummy]

PS, in the classic Disney film, the King imposes his will on the Grand Duke on pain of death, by the sword.

[ClaireClaire]

WorkingMummy,

Yes, also concerned and have been since my daughter was younger (she is now 6).

The Cinderella story and others like it have problems, I agree; I do not think they are harmless at all.

I have a problem not only with those princess and fairy-tale books where the female has to be rescued and her story ends with her being married off; but all those other books and TV shows where females are under-represented or do not exist at all! (Why, amongst the Octonoauts, which my daughter loves, for example, is there only 1 female character? And why is it that only the 3 male characters get to go out on missions? This sends the message that boys are at the centre of the action and get to do all the exciting stuff; girls have to watch from the sidelines. There are numerous books, TV shows and films that are (perhaps unwittingly) based on this paradigm, and I don't think they are at all harmless.)

I recommend a book called "Great Books for Girls" by Kathleen Odean.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Books-Girls-Inspire-Tomorrows/dp/0345450213/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363083548&sr=8-1

Here's one extract from her introduction:

"Sexism starts young. Research shows that even preschoolers harbor negative views of females and positive ones of males. In one troubling academic study, three- and five-year-olds viewed a videotape of two infants playing side by side. Half of the children were told that the infant on the left was female and the one on the right, male; the other half were told the opposite. The children proceeded to describe the infant they thought was female as 'small, scared, slow, weak, quiet, dumb and soft.' They described the one identified as male as 'big, mad, fast, strong, loud, smart and hard.' The SAME infant was rated in negative terms when the children believed it was a female, in positive terms when they believed it to be a male." [p3]

And the exposure to gender-stereotyped messages intensifies as the children grow older. Have a look at this one, for example:

http://www.rachelsimmons.com/2011/04/the-astonishing-sexism-of-hollywood-and-what-it-means-for-girls/

Anyway, I'm sure there will be a variety of views on this; my view is that gender stereotyping will creep in early and insidiously unless you are aware of it and take steps to counteract it.

Good luck and WorkingMummy if you would like to discuss further, please PM me.

Claire

[Worker]

I have to say that is not the plot synopsis or impression that springs to my mind. I had it that the King arranged a ball, Cinderella danced with PC and they fell in love, then she had to run before the spell was broken (rather than running away from PC).

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where is he not?

>

> He is from a dynasty who gets to command all

> virgin women to attend the palace inmediately

> (that very night) so that he can have his pick of

> them for his wife. He takes his pick. She runs

> away. He issues a royal proclamation that she will

> be found and that he WILL marry her.

[WorkingMummy]

Well, it's a weight off to at least hear there are like minded people on this one.

I don't allow live Tv for exactly the reason you identify, ClaireClaire. The kids (infrequently) watch on demand instead. It leaves me with Charlie and Lola, that's about it.

These fairy tales are rare in that they do feature females prominently. But not in a good way. To my mind, the only virtue Cinderella has (I do not equate sweetness towards evil as a virtue) is her beauty. There's no way I want my girls thinking like that.

However, I am trying to raise free thinkers, rather than mini-mes, so what do you think, ClaireClaire? Ban these stories, or simply criticise them? (I tried this last night. Told my daughters I thought Cinderella would be more sensible, and admirable, if she said, "Scrub your own floors!" But, they disagreed. Which I would welcome if I thought it was truly a free thought, and not that they had bought the sugar coated falsehood of this piece of S&M propaganda.)

Thanks for the book tips. Another trip to amazon for me...

[WorkingMummy]

Worker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to say that is not the plot synopsis or

> impression that springs to my mind. I had it that

> the King arranged a ball, Cinderella danced with

> PC and they fell in love, then she had to run

> before the spell was broken (rather than running

> away from PC).

>

>

Cinderella "fell in love" with him. Of course she did. He was the first person to smile at her for years and years. He was also, however, a master figure, not a peer. And by marrying her the day after the day after the ball, he took awful advantage of that.

It's text book masochism. I find it a very creepy portrayal of love.

[Worker]

I'm guessing the response 'it's just a children's cartoon story' isn't going to cut the mustard here.

For mine, while I agree that many stories, books, films, etc need putting in context, I wouldn't want to take this to the point where these stories become nothing but cold, hard life lessons and lose any magic they had.

This is an interesting thread, but. Could be a long one!

[theasidonio]

Just for fun....

http://www.cracked.com/article_16905_7-classic-disney-movies-that-taught-us-terrible-lessons.html

As a child of the 1980s and major Disney fan, there is a massive shift in the heroines back then and nowadays. Mulan was realeased in 1998 and she is a strong female character....

My favourite is Ariel from the Little Mermaid.

One one hand - cute story about a mermaid who dreams of a different life, who then meets and falls in love with a human. On the other, she sells her soul to the devil to get what she wants, changes the way she looks for a man and falls out with her dad.

[WorkingMummy]

Yes, a long one perhaps. A lot to unpack.

The story is magical, granted. But I don't think it is cold. It is dark, but not cold.

It is because of the magic (which imo goes a lot deeper than disneys glittering presentation) that fairytales are not just cartoons. If the story were to lose its magic, then I wouldn't mind reading it to my children.

(I think the magic is something about our unattractive, but hard-wired tendency, on occasions, to opt for freedom from responsibility at the cost of freedom full stop. Something about being beguiled, about making someone else responsible for our welfare. Cinderella takes zero responsibility for herself, submits to evil as a result and is "rewarded" by the "love" of the smiling prince.)

[WorkingMummy]

theasidonio Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just for fun....

>

>

> http://www.cracked.com/article_16905_7-classic-dis

> ney-movies-that-taught-us-terrible-lessons.html

Liked!

[Otta]

My nearly 4 year old has just recently started talking pink, and asking to wear a dress. It must be the influence of preschool, where there are a few proper little princesses. We are doing our best to keep her interested in other stuff, but when all the little girls at school like something, it's going to be difficult to avoid.

I am determined that no Barbie doll will ever enter my home though!

[WorkingMummy]

Funny you should say that. My husband recently returned from his mother with parcels (wrapped ) for our girls. Barbies! For pre-schoolers! We were both livid. We have been very clear about this. Now looking for opportunity to lose them.

When we were looking at schools for our eldest we looked at one top local girls school (can't really hide the id). I was so depressed to see photos of their annual book day, with all the little girls dressed up as .... Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White. Can they not change the rules a little, to get the girls to think outside that particular box?

We crossed that school off our list. Why pay to submerge your daughter in the same crappy passive-submissive hero worship she can get for free elsewhere?

[BeccaL]

Read them Revolting Rhymes by Roald Dahl - great take on Cinderella etc!

Agree re world book day too - thankfully daughter went as Katie from Katie and the Dinosaurs, was accompanied to school by Hermione, some witches (including the grand High Witch from the Witches by Roald Dahl) and Mrs Pepperpot - pleased to see the lack of princesses!

[HOMum]

I wish I could click 'like' no 'live' your post Otta.

I am a mum to a 2.5 year old and so far I have succeeded in the no barbie dolls! She is very rarely in pink, as I am loathe to buy it. I hate the whole stereotype and she is pretty rounded so far.

Her favourite thing in the whold world at the moment is her mini micro scooter!

[TE44]

WorkingMummy

>

> (I think the magic is something about our

> unattractive, but hard-wired tendency, on

> occasions, to opt for freedom from responsibility

> at the cost of freedom full stop. Something about

> being beguiled, about making someone else

> responsible for our welfare. Cinderella takes

> zero responsibility for herself, submits to evil

> as a result and is "rewarded" by the "love" of the

> smiling prince.)

Magic has different neanings to everyone,

I associate it with freedom of choice,, intuition,

Taking control of you own life. Women and men

Were hunted and suffered terrible deaths for refusing to

give up there connection with nature.

I feel there is still a struggle now, when

Making choices against the norm.

I don't mean to take this away fron original post,

I had similiar thoughts about many books w

hen my children were younger. I ave tried to

bring my children to have there own

thoughts and hopefuly have a sense of freedom.

Luckily there are some great books, even the books

I didn't like gave room for communication and I

learned a lot from my childrens perceptions.

[Otta]

I can't believe that people actually dressed as Disney princesses on BOOK day.

We had planned to send our girl as funny bones, but when it came to it she flatly refused to get dressed up, and that was the end of that.

[TE44]

My sister works in nursery and says the room was full

of princesses, but then again at christmas, santa gave wands and tiara for ggirls

and cars for boys.

[WorkingMummy]

TE44 wrote

>

> Magic has different neanings to everyone,

> I associate it with freedom of choice,,

> intuition,

> Taking control of you own life.

I like the ideas of freedom and personal responsibility too! I'm not sure I understand all you say about nature, but for what it's worth, the magic/wonder of the natural world (as discovered by scientific observation) is all I need in that department.

I wasn't really trying to define "magic" as such. I was just picking up on Worker's sentiment that she wouldn't want fairy tales to lose their "magic". I guess I should say, I wish I could take away these stories' "power" over my kids. But feel that I can't: there's something there which is bigger than me.

On the magic point, I was saying, in effect, just because something is bewitching, doesn't make it good. It might make it very, very bad. In this tale of sadism and masochism, I think the "magic" of the story should be resisted.

Funny thing is (as I have posted elsewhere at length) my girls are quite feisty. It is utterly depressing to see that, despite all that, they fall for this b/s, and idolise Cinderella so fanatically.

[etta166]

I share a lot of the concerns that people have given with Disney princesses and the portrayl of girls/women in children's stories. However, I wouldn't ever ban them from my house. We still read Cinderella (not the Disney version, but the Ladybird Best Loved Tales from the 80s) but discuss the story and whether we think the charaters are nice, what we might do differently in the same situation etc. This applies as much to want Cinderella might do for herself as to why we would never be as mean as the ugly sisters, or how Daddy would never let anyone be so mean to one of his children. My son is 4 at the moment, and really loves the story of Cinderella but mostly for the magic that can turn mice into horses and a pumpkin into a carriage.

I also try to have stories that balance out the image of princesses (and heroines), like the Paper Bag Princess.

I'm hoping that by discussing the story it will be more useful in the long run than trying to protect my children from having to think about the issues that it raises. I have to admit that I would (or will) be upset if my daughter (now 2) has a prolonged princess phase in the future. I think that's mainly because I was a tomboy as a child and I worry that I will find it hard to relate to her in a constructive way if she's very, very girly. But that's a completely different issue...

[WorkingMummy]

Etta166, maybe you are right about a ban. Children need to learn these stories if they are to be literate in the widest sense. Critique is probably the best approach?

(Having said that, inspired by ClaireClaire, I just chucked out the tackiest pinky "princesses" book we have on our shelves.)

My husband bought a huge, German tome of fairytales back from Switzerland (he is swiss) last year. The stories in the original german forms are mostly very obviously dark, which makes the critique side of things easier to get off the ground. If you are up against a picture of Cinderella in a sparkling pink ball gown, forget critique. Waste of breath.

But still, I find the Cinderella story remains difficult and you never get away from one particular sinister message it contains, which is "good" (or rather, sweet) people are beautiful, bad people are of course ugly.