Openreach Fibre black hole

[ed_pete]

Like many I'm currently with Virgin Media for my broadband.

I'm considering switching to an another provider that will use the Openreach network and I was surprised and pretty disappointed to see the speeds on offer for my street so I decided to see what other streets were like.

it seems that I'm in blackhole of ADSL speeds of up 11-13Mbps whereas there are several streets on a few hundred metres away that have fibre available and speeds to to 70+Mbps.

If these numbers are true then it looks like I'll be staying with VM if I need a reasonable speed.

(Sorry - can't layout the below as a table)

Numbers are min/max Mbps speeds quoted.

Townley Road, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8SR 20 36 Fibre

Kempis Way, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TU 35 73 Fibre

Isel Way, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TT 35 73 Fibre

Arnhem Way, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TS 35 73 Fibre

Deventer Crescent, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TJ 5 13

Velde Way, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TP 4 12

Delft Way, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TR? 4 9

Nimegen Way, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8TL 7 16

Thorncombe Road, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8PX 5 11

Glengarry Road, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8QA 5 13

Tarbert Road, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8QB 5 13

Trossachs Road, London, SE22 8PY 5 11

Glengarry Road, London, SE22 8PZ 5 11

East Dulwich Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8PU 5 13

East Dulwich Grove, London, SE22 8TW 5 13

East Dulwich Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8PP 35 73 Fibre

Melbourne Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8QY 35 50 Fibre

Ashbourne Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8RN 35 73 Fibre

Chesterfield Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8RW 35 73 Fibre

Tell Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8RH 35 73 Fibre

Tintagel Crescent, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8HT 35 73 Fibre

Elsie Road, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8DX 35 70 Fibre

Derwent Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8EA 35 50 Fibre

Melbourne Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8QZ 35 50 Fibre

Matham Grove, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8PN 35 73 Fibre

Playfield Crescent, East Dulwich, London, SE22 8QR 20 36 Fibre

Postcodes here: https://checkmypostcode.uk/map/use/?loc=18,51.45658413434781,-0.08243501186370851

Speeds available here: https://www.bt.com/products/broadband/deals

[Metallic]

I think Dulwich Village residents are in another one. A friend who lives on there was telling me as I asked why our book club zoom failed. Her download speed is less than 7 quite often. Not sure what Openreach are doing about it all though.

[CPR Dave]

Looks you live in the Low Internet Traffic Neighbourhood.

They are all a bit backwards that side of East Dulwich as it goes.

[colb2015]

Not sure if the above is actually correct, my area is listed as low teens but I get about 75 and I'm on openreach.

[ed_pete]

kerry2015 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure if the above is actually correct, my area

> is listed as low teens but I get about 75 and I'm

> on openreach.

That's the problem. I might get a better speed and maybe the info on all the BB suppliers sites is out of date - I have checked several not just BT - but the package cost reflects the speed your supposed to get. I'd be happy to pay for fibre but according to the information available, it's not possible at the moment.

[Penguin68]

BT has 3 main broadband offerings, the slowest of which is ADSL - which is an end-to-end copper based technology and the slowest. BT also offers a FTTC (Fibre to the Cabinet) service - the last leg of this is copper - which runs up to about 70Mgb - badged as (I think) Fibre 1 or 2 - these are the ones shown as Fibre on your chart - and (in some exchanges, but not I think available in ED) full Fibre to the Premise (end-to-end fibre). I suspect that the determinant is which BT exchange you are served by (you can no longer tell that just by the numbering range). As the underlying service is delivered by BT Openreach you are right that if BT cannot supply the speed you want, in this area it is only Virgin (actually the US Cable company consortium formerly known as NTL) that could - all other suppliers are virtual network operators relying on the underlying BT Openreach network.

[ed_pete]

Thanks Penguin68 - I understand the connection options from ADSL to FTTP and I'm aware that the Openreach exchange that fulfils most of ED is at the end of Court Lane (on the site of the old fire station, for those that are interested). I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that within a few hundred metres, some properties have FTTC and others ADSL, e.g. Arnham Way and Delft Way in the Dutch Estate a few metres apart but gigabits apart in terms of download speeds.

[ianr]

Try the broadband availability checker at https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/, first with just your postcode and then, starting from that top link again, entering any BT phone number that may have been used at your premises. (In my case I still have the number, but it's now Plusnet and so 'non-BT'.) I found that in the first case I was told just that FTTC was available in some areas. In the latter I was given some given some actual fibre data rates.

[Bic Basher]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> BT has 3 main broadband offerings, the slowest of

> which is ADSL - which is an end-to-end copper

> based technology and the slowest. BT also offers a

> FTTC (Fibre to the Cabinet) service - the last leg

> of this is copper - which runs up to about 70Mgb -

> badged as (I think) Fibre 1 or 2 - these are the

> ones shown as Fibre on your chart - and (in some

> exchanges, but not I think available in ED) full

> Fibre to the Premise (end-to-end fibre). I suspect

> that the determinant is which BT exchange you are

> served by (you can no longer tell that just by the

> numbering range). As the underlying service is

> delivered by BT Openreach you are right that if BT

> cannot supply the speed you want, in this area it

> is only Virgin (actually the US Cable company

> consortium formerly known as NTL) that could - all

> other suppliers are virtual network operators

> relying on the underlying BT Openreach network.

There's also G.Fast which is even faster FTTC which comes with a second modem. They offer it on my cabinet.

[JohnL]

Sometimes a cabinet is full and you can only get basic ADSL rather than FTTC

You'd think Openreach could do something but ..

[Nigello]

Dulwich V just had workmen putting in fibre for something like Community Fibre. They had pink and white barriers - how pretty and a change from corporation orange.

[ianr]

ed_pete, I've been doing some more experiments after seeing your most recent post, which I'd not read when posting mine. I've tried this time using your bt.com link, and getting estimates for

(1) Arnhem Way (a) based on postcode only, and (b) for a specific address

(2) My own road, ditto

In each case the (a) estimates were obviously based on ADSL whereas the (b) ones were for FTTC.

So basically I'd suggest that at least some (in default I suspect maybe all) of your ADSL reports are artifacts: they're simply revealing that the BT estimate offer is a conservative one, not willing to give a specific FTTC commitment until it's tied to a specific address that's then looked up in one of their database tables. It is, after all, a sales portal, and giving a false overestimate might be embarrassing.

I'm interested to know if you agree. Have you, for example, tried entering your own exact address? If you are doing any more tests yourself, be aware that the BT software adds a declared location to its cookies. I deleted all bt.com cookies between each of my own tests.

For anyone interested, there's a nice little diagram at https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/fttc.htm showing how the FTTC signal gets to us — mainly through fibre to a neighbourhood FTTC cabinet, then via a link to a local ADSL cabinet, and only then via the ADSL metal wires for the last shortish step.

[ed_pete]

Hi ianr - I have tried numerous sites (BT, Sky, Vodafone, Plusnet, John Lewis, Uswitch), most of which don't offer anything faster than 11-13mbps. Uswitch threw up Poptelecom who did offer fibre but they sound a little dodgy.

My guess is that they all using the same database which may or may not be out of date. It may be possible to get something faster than 13mbps but because they don't think you will, their websites will not offer you any fibre-based packages. I'm not sure that I want to sign up for an ADSL package and then just hope that the actual speed is better.

Also considering 5G from 3. I am supposed to get top quality 5G reception indoors where I am and its sold on a 14-day money back basis so could be worth a punt.

[JohnL]

This article sort of explains the local FTTC cabinet issue but its from 2016

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/09/openreach-bt-handles-full-capacity-fttc-broadband-cabinets.html

According to recent information released by Openreach to ISPs, at the time of writing some 1,970 out of 77,033 live

cabinets were full to capacity and awaiting upgrades (around 2.6%)

This forum question sort of explains the issue too and gives a link to test which if on entering your postcode says "waiting list" for the VDSL entry - your local cab is full

https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Fibre-broadband/my-local-cabinet-is-full/td-p/2117843

BT Link to test by postcode

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome

[redpost]

ianr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ed_pete, I've been doing some more experiments

> after seeing your most recent post, which I'd not

> read when posting mine. I've tried this time using

> your bt.com link, and getting estimates for

>

> (1) Arnhem Way (a) based on postcode only, and (b)

> for a specific address

> (2) My own road, ditto

>

> In each case the (a) estimates were obviously

> based on ADSL whereas the (b) ones were for FTTC.

>

> So basically I'd suggest that at least some (in

> default I suspect maybe all) of your ADSL reports

> are artifacts: they're simply revealing that the

> BT estimate offer is a conservative one, not

> willing to give a specific FTTC commitment until

> it's tied to a specific address that's then looked

> up in one of their database tables. It is, after

> all, a sales portal, and giving a false

> overestimate might be embarrassing.

>

> I'm interested to know if you agree. Have you,

> for example, tried entering your own exact

> address? If you are doing any more tests

> yourself, be aware that the BT software adds a

> declared location to its cookies. I deleted all

> bt.com cookies between each of my own tests.

>

> For anyone interested, there's a nice little

> diagram at https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/fttc.htm

> showing how the FTTC signal gets to us —

> mainly through fibre to a neighbourhood FTTC

> cabinet, then via a link to a local ADSL cabinet,

> and only then via the ADSL metal wires for the

> last shortish step.

The estimate is conservative and I believe is based on distance from the cabinet (FTTC)/exchange (ADSL)

They are conservative because they don't know what condition your circuit is in i.e. old cable with poor insulation, water ingress, corroded connections, how much is alu/copper wire etc ... lots of variables

When you do get ADSL or whatever installed, it will take a few weeks to work out the quality of your line and automatically set the linespeed to whatever your circuit can reliably take

[Penguin68]

They are conservative because they don't know what condition your circuit is in i.e. old cable with poor insulation, water ingress, corroded connections, how much is alu/copper wire etc ... lots of variables

There is very little aluminium in the whole local network (it was an experiment that didn't really work), I'm not sure there's any locally to ED. The enhanced copper of G Fast only works over very short runs from the cabinet. If offering ADSL they'd (Openreach) normally wipe up any corroded connections. For the FTTC service it is only copper from the last flexibility point (normally a local cabinet). The remainder (back haul to the exchange) will be fibre where 'condition' won't be an issue.

[JohnL]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When you do get ADSL or whatever installed, it

> will take a few weeks to work out the quality of

> your line and automatically set the linespeed to

> whatever your circuit can reliably take

The max linespeed of some adsl2 circuits (in London too if you're unlucky) is awful - 1 or 2Mbps download and less than 1 upload.

You or the SP can play with SNR/DLR as much as you like to get a few more K but youre stuck with that order of magnitude until FTTC or FTTP becomes available.

On FTTP - We had FTTP put into our block this year with the fibres running along the corridors and then someone came along to put fire safety stuff in the ceilings and broke the fibres LOL.

[ed_pete]

Thanks JohnL - I don't have a BT line so had to use the address version of the checker below and that, if it's picked up the correct cabinet, say that FTTC is available. Strange if true then that the ISP's aren't offering it.

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This article sort of explains the local FTTC

> cabinet issue but its from 2016

>

> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/09/open

> reach-bt-handles-full-capacity-fttc-broadband-cabi

> nets.html

>

> According to recent information released by

> Openreach to ISPs, at the time of writing some

> 1,970 out of 77,033 live

> cabinets were full to capacity and awaiting

> upgrades (around 2.6%)

>

> This forum question sort of explains the issue too

> and gives a link to test which if on entering your

> postcode says "waiting list" for the VDSL entry -

> your local cab is full

>

> https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Fibre-broadband/my-

> local-cabinet-is-full/td-p/2117843

>

> BT Link to test by postcode

>

> https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADS

> L/AddressHome

[redpost]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> They are conservative because they don't know what

> condition your circuit is in i.e. old cable with

> poor insulation, water ingress, corroded

> connections, how much is alu/copper wire etc ...

> lots of variables

>

> There is very little aluminium in the whole local

> network (it was an experiment that didn't really

> work), I'm not sure there's any locally to ED. The

> enhanced copper of G Fast only works over very

> short runs from the cabinet. If offering ADSL

> they'd (Openreach) normally wipe up any corroded

> connections. For the FTTC service it is only

> copper from the last flexibility point (normally a

> local cabinet). The remainder (back haul to the

> exchange) will be fibre where 'condition' won't be

> an issue.

I beg to disagree, anecdata from 4y ago: I have a pole connection that would drop out occasionally and have very varied performance. After persistently complaining to my provider Zen, openreach came around and replaced an old alu line with copper, the engineer said the connections on the pole were also badly corroded and he replaced those at the same time.

They stopped using alu in the 80s/90s, doesn't mean it's not still around and some of it works fine!