today's protest

[celineblondon]

Anybody from East Dulwich at the protest today in London? Very good turnout of Pro Tibetan protesters. What do you guys think about it?

[bon3yard]

I was going to start a thread about this myself today but you beat me to it! I must admit to feeling fairly ambiguous about it all(mainly due to my limited knowledge on the subject). However I do get the distinct feeling that nations involved in an illegal war in a far off land where hundreds of thousands of people have been liquidated in the last 5 years should tread very, very carefully when commenting on the internal politics of an alien regime.

[SeanMacGabhann]

After several re-written replies, I'm just going to basically agree with bon3yard's response

No doubting China's inherent flaky human-rights positions (and Lady MacGabhann was in China for 3 weeks leading up to the cirrent situation in Tibet and witnessed first hand the different reporting there) but as we start to hand over not only the Olympic torch but (and less willingly) also the possible economic dominant position, I wish we were able to do so from a morally sounder position (by our own, possibly imagined, standards - I'm not yet equivocating China with the US and Europe)

[celineblondon]

I understand your point of view, however, as a human being, you should be able to fight for other human beings rights, wether they are Tibetans, Irakies or Godknows where from. What my government does or does not do is besides the point.

BTW, there were hundreds of Tibetans here today. I am sure that most of those who were not tibetans, have been to Tibet or India and met with some of the refugees there. Personnally, I was not only representing my opinion but those of hundreds who cannot speak out.

The thing with Tibet, is that the olympics is their only chance to be heard. They have been waiting for this for years and years... Only now can they be heard because the international community is looking closely at China. Soon after the Olympics, they will be turned back to silence... Anyway, my opinion...

[PreferToRemainAnon]

Yep, ED was represented..!!

Up at the British Museum and then herded on (eventually.....:( ) to Kings Cross for the rally. We tried to get to Whitehall but the Police had other ideas. Very Beijing-esque...... All very peaceful despite some less than helpful policing (and no, I'm not anti-police but in fact generally pro-police)

bon3yard Wrote:

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> However I do get the distinct feeling that nations involved

> in an illegal war in a far off land where hundreds

> of thousands of people have been liquidated in the

> last 5 years should tread very, very carefully

> when commenting on the internal politics of an

> alien regime.

Except that thousands of people demonstrated against that too. Sadly, our democratically elected Government chose to ignore us. Those that are comparing the PR job that the Beijing Olympics is with that of the Berlin Olympics in 1936 have a good point IMO. Except that back then PR was known as propaganda, and genocide (Tibet) was called ethnic cleansing. My, how far we've come........

Remember the boycott of sport in South Africa?? Only difference is that we didn't do billions of ?'s of trade with SA like we do with China. Brown should be ashamed of himself for planning to attend the opening ceremony. Given the level of support for Tibet in the UK he should never have allowed today to happen but given that he is a politician, what would we expect. Hopefully though, we managed to cause the Chinese government some embarrassment by exercising one of our last remaining democratic rights and Paris is next.......

Shame the UK media have done such a hatchet job on the protest.............

[PreferToRemainAnon]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> I wish we were able to do so from a morally sounder position

> (by our own, possibly imagined, standards - I'm

> not yet equivocating China with the US and Europe)

Todays protest was as much against our own governments behaviour as that of China's. Gordo has let the side down down. Again.

[celineblondon]

Glad you were here too!

I think the media have done a good job so far. They have to show both sides, there were not only Pro-tibet supporters but others too who didn'tgive a damn about it - which is their choice also.

I was in front of Downing street and well, I was amazed by the turnout and almost upset by it - I hope they can feel our support in Tibet and in exile.

I hear there is trouble in the Chinese government, that it might be splitting. Or a beginning of protest within the party. Let's hope things will change

[PreferToRemainAnon]

So far the only headlines I've seen since we waved the REAL torch off at Kings X, was about " Clashes along Olympic torch route" c/o BBC website. I'd much rather they talked about the sheer number of pro-Tibet protesters there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the Olympics in any way but I think it is sick that China can, effectively, buy credibility by hosting the Olympics. It appears that the IOC is as corrupt as your average Prime Minister/President.

Just watching Sky news which is definitely more balanced. Good on them.

[david75]

Having both Tibetan and Chinese friends todays protest was dear to my heart.

Although I have sympathy for the people in glass houses not throwing stones sentiment, there is a division in China currently, one that was not palpable even one year ago. China is at a tipping point, and this vocal opposition to the CCP can only bolster support for those within China who want to take China in a more democratic path. The CCP's own figures report one industrial strike a day, the country is on the move, and having spoken with Chinese in China, the Olympics and how China is perceived internationally because of this is of great importance to all Chinese. Now is not the time to sit on our hands and ignore the attrocities that the CCP is undertaking in Tibet, and to other minorities.

The world has to stand up and be counted and let the CCP know that each time they act in their old ways they shame their own people.

Its important to understand that today's demo was not against the Chinese people, it was simply against the continued brutality and supression of the CCP.

Not everyone in China accepts the rule of the CCP.

FREE TIBET.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I agree to a point PrefertoRemainAnon - and I'm basically on your side

Where I disagree is that (unlike instigating the Iraq war) - Gordon's actions were an act of political expediency.

Political leaders sometimes need to carry people with them ( I think of Gerry Adams shouldering IRA soldiers coffins mid peace-process. I might despise the organisation and the act but had he not done it he would not have been able command his troops and the likelyhood is the bloodshed in Ireland would have continued. People like Robinson and Paisly on the loyalist side arguably did similar things)

China is undoubtedly counting on the Olympics to give it credibility it doesn't deserve. And Seb Coe and others who argue that politics has no place in sport are wrong. But some quid pro quo is sometimes necessary. China appears to want to move towards international acceptance - and yet can't renounce all of it's power in one fell swoop (similarly with Britain and Ireland) I say this not as any apology for the regime but given the longer game, this may all be a tactical play...

I don't disagree with the condemnation of China in the protests - i just don;t think the protests in and of themselves hold any kind of solution. To actually achieve some kind of progress in Tibet requires lines of communication

(at this point I'd be interested in our South African correspondent's take on events back then - did protests similar to today's achieve anything or was it something else?)

[celineblondon]

I watched the news all day- First was outraged that they spoke about protests and showing no images. They are coming little by little. They finally showed protesters in White Hall and by the O2 Arena. 1000's of them.

I am not against the olympics and not for a boycott of the olympics. The boycott of the opening ceremony will be good though. In fact, I am very very happy that the olympics are hosted in China, as I said, it is the only chance for people in China to be heard. They have been waiting for this for years. It is a unique occasion to reveal the truth about what is going on there.

I hope Gordon Brown - and Sarkosy, as he will be leading Europe at the time of the ceremony - will take a stance. However, as we all know, the consequences on the economy can be more than damaging. The only way for our politicians to have the "courage" to voice their disagreement, is if all or most of them do so... And I think if protests carry on this way around the world, this may be possible :)

[PreferToRemainAnon]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> To actually achieve some kind of progress in Tibet

> requires lines of communication

Agreed, but Gordo dropped the ball here by allowing today to go ahead. China steadfastly refuse to enter into any dialogue but he COULD have put pressure on at a high political level by refusing to allow the torch coming through London but decided to bend over and touch his toes and take the power of the Yuan up to the hilt. Horrid (not so) little man.

[celineblondon]

Gordon has not put pressure, but the people did it. China has lost face today and this is BIG. Some Tibetans today believe they made "History". I believe it too.

But then, nobody in China is going to see any of that...anyway

I was amazed when the spokesman for the Chinese embassy said today that Chinese are free, they have access to Internet... Yeah right! All websites that are controversial and not in line with the government, are simply blocked!

[Asset]

Gordon won't publicly denounce China's actions as China is far too important in economic terms to annoy. The Tibet situation is totally unacceptable (and has been for years). However, neither Tibet nor Zimbabwe have oil so our governments, and other's, feel able to sit back and let the injustice and human rights abuses happen.

[PreferToRemainAnon]

Asset - please will you be our PM 'cos our last ??? ones have been *add expleteive of choice*

Celineblondon - never thought I'd be part of history ::o . Free Tibet in our lifetime? Did you make it up to the rally at Kinds X?

[Asset]

If you promise to vote for me I may consider it; but you must remenber that the slightest whiff of power can corrupt even the most level-headed person.

[celineblondon]

PreferToRemainAnon :No I don't think Tibet will be free and it is not really what people want right now. Mostly they want to stop the human right abuses and demand cultural autonomy. That would be a good start.

Now will it happen...? I hope there will be some positive changes... Even though I am scared that as soon as the Olympics are over, when the press and foreigners go back to their country and forget about all of this, people in Tibet will pay a very heavy price for the protests

Went to the rally at Kings Cross for an hour or two...

[giggirl]

celineblondon Wrote:

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> Gordon has not put pressure, but the people did

> it. China has lost face today and this is BIG.

> Some Tibetans today believe they made "History". I

> believe it too.

> But then, nobody in China is going to see any of

> that...anyway

Hi Celine, I'm really happy to say that you're WRONG here; the London protests have been reported in China. I'm in China looking at today's copy of the South China Morning Post and the headline on the front page says "PROTESTERS DISRUPT LONDON TORCH RELAY" I can't find the article online because I think you need to subscribe to the paper to look online. Try here though

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=9153574025429110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=World&s=News

.... but I promise you this is on the front page in today's paper - big headline too - not hidden away on page 5 or whatever.

I applaud the London protesters - you made your point and it's being reported.

[ratty]

I was embarrassed for my country! Sorry but I was!

[celineblondon]

giggirl: Wouah! So this is good news

The BBC said last night that nothing had been reported...

The forumites from That-s beijing- which you should be familiar with (are you living in beijing?) also mentionend that the BBC had been blocked - once again.

So this comes as a surprise.

Thanks ;)

[Cassius]

Let's see what the French can do now - they are known for enjoying a good ruck!

[Michael Palaeologus]

I dont think that you can dislocate politics and international sport. Politicians will clain that you can, when it suits them, but then will be the first to be seen waving the flag at a sports event when that suits them. Cynical bastards that they are.

Hypocrisy as ever rules and Burma, Zim, Tibet and so on will suffer as long as they have nothing to "offer". This is the odious side of real-politik. Sadly I fear that after the Olympics the media will lose interest and Tibet will disappear off the radar scope for most people.

I did feel sorry for Konnie Huk though - she did sort of get squashed in the scrum. How dare they do that to a Blue Peter presenter.

[snorky]

Chinas an easy target innit - its a nice little day our for Guardian readers with a bit of scuffling for the brave few -

which is fair enough I suppose. A Campaign medal to sit alongside their Pro-Palestine rally award.

IM not saying the Chinese are lovely and cuddly - far from it, but they are being supported explicitly and implicitly by our own governments and more importantly & relevantly, by our own ongoing consumer goods fetish and spending patterns - have a bleat / wear the protest badge / buy the flat screen telly / upgrade your PC... ad nauseum

So Im a bit ambivalent on this one all things considered - the Chinese are bad puppies indeed, but they are not the only ones around - I dont care about the Olymics TBH, but to get all shouty and declare that the whole torch business is being cruelly manipulated by the Dastardly insrutable ( ...fill in usual stereotypes as required ) Chinese for their own Political purposes is singling them out for something that isnt exactly new in the history of the games.

Its all a bit wishy washy really isnt it. A diversion from the real problem, a sop to the conscience of the concened liberals, but doesnt exactly do a great deal.

um.

[david_carnell]

Does threats of boycotting or actually doing so have any real effect? The tit-for-tat boycotts by the USSR and the USA did nothing to hasten Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan or improve diplomatic relations in the 1980s.

The only people who suffer are athletes who have trained all their lives to compete at the pinnacle of their sport and are then denied the chance due to petty bureaucrats. The Olympics will still go ahead whether we are there or not. Sport is political (re: Jesse Owens; Tommy Smith; and Blood in the Water) but penalising ostensibly apolitical athletes does nothing to free Tibet. Dialogue and diplomacy are the way forward.

Real action would be applying pressure to British business interests in China.

[KalamityKel]

Oooo well said!