E-scooters to come to Dulwich Park...

[exdulwicher]

It would be interesting to know the ranked list of causes of accidents and the impact on the NHS.

I imagine that the top ones would be subject to Health and Safety regulation at least.

Fireworks are probably on there.

Accident data is tricky to compile accurately since a lot of it relies on reports to emergency services and/or admission to hospital. A lot of what is out there is already split out into categories, eg workplace accidents, road accidents and so on. Couple that with the way they're reported and how some accidents are lumped together (slips, trips and falls for example does not immediately distinguish between tripping on a pavement slab or falling off a ladder).

So finding an absolute highest cause of accidents is very difficult.

H&S Regulation only really applies in the workplace - so the slips trips and falls cases get more complicated when you consider that a roofer falling off a ladder is a workplace injury but the pedestrian tripping over a pavement slab is not.

The article from King's reckons 196 injuries in 2020 so the Government figures (483 injuries nationwide and 1 death) raises the question of reporting standards. Did Denmark Hill really treat 40% of ALL scooter injuries in 2020?! Seems high...? 196 is given as a number with no context as well. On it's own it seems high but how many scooters are in use, what mileage has been done (to give an injuries per mile scootered)? I suspect that will be very difficult to come by since private e-scooters are illegal on public roads. The legal private hire companies operating e-scooters claim that more than 165,000 trips have been made since the trials launched so (assuming their figures and the Government injury ones for a moment), 483 injuries out of 165,000 trips is about 0.3% of trips - seems pretty safe! If you factor in the illegal journeys as well, that % drops even further - however we're still left with the potential under-reporting since there's a discrepancy between what one London hospital reports and the nationwide figures from Government. There's also no context given to any other injuries that Kings treats - I suspect that 196 fractures from scooter accidents is a tiny proportion of the overall number of fractures that Kings treats per year.

The 2020 road death figures show a drop because of Covid but there were:

1460 road deaths across the country (346 of those were pedestrians)

22,069 seriously injured

Most years, deaths sits at around 1800 or so, about 5 deaths per day with about 30,000 seriously injured. Again, reporting methodology changes a bit but the numbers are adjusted to cope with statistical changes and external factors.

I believe any motorised vehicle should require a licence and insurance to operate.

Doesn't seem to stop drivers killing 5 people every day. The average cost per road traffic death is about ?2m by the way, made up of of vehicle and property damage, emergency services costs and insurance costs. If you'd like to complain about the costs to society, you're looking at the wrong target with scooters...

[rjsmall]

Interesting article just published in Wired magazine https://www.wired.co.uk/article/escooters-accidents-europe that references the problems other cities have experienced along with the ban the Royal Parks have on them.

A e-scooter is certainly easier to get on and ride than an e-bike with no physical effort required. Perhaps this makes them more likely than a bike to be used after a few beers.

[Nigello]

How sad that so many people should die in RTAs or similar. I see many young people on bikes with NO lights at the front or back, some with no reflective gear and shudder inwardly. Accidents happen in the blink of an eye and can be fatal and or life-changing for all involved. So, people racing up the bike lane on a souped-up e-scooter with no helmet on, etc. are definitely anti-social and potentially homicidal and should be treated as such.

[ianr]

> I suspect that 196 fractures

> from scooter accidents

The Southwark News article said 196 "injuries". The ortho surgeon quoted simply spoke of "an increasing volume of patients needing surgery to treat complicated fractures following e-scooter collisions".

[Rockets]

And there is this narrative that all road deaths are the fault of drivers - Ex- you just fell into that trap with your drivers killing 5 people every day commentary - which we hear time and time again from the pro-cycle lobby - as if drivers are on a deliberate quest to kill people. It's really not helpful as any death is one too many.

No-one knows the circumstances of each and every accident and whilst it is true that there are deaths caused everyday by vehicles it's not always the driver's fault - for example, I was in cab with a driver who had been a witness to a fatal bike accident and he said that the cyclist had been texting on their phone, lost control of their bike and fell into the path of a vehicle and that it was no fault of the vehicle driver who could do nothing about it.

Ex- there must be concern about the rise in e-scooter accidents for the Kings specialist to go to the papers about the rise and they say: "Our day case trauma surgical lists are being impacted with an increasing volume of patients needing surgery to treat complicated fractures following e-scooter collisions. The increasing costs, and their rate of increase, are a concern.?

But, hey ho, let's just ignore this because e-scooters are not cars and, therefore by default must be brilliant! I am not drinking that Kool-Aid I am afraid and so it seems are lot of other people in a lot of other countries who have first-hand experience of dealing with the issues they cause.

And rjsmall yes drunk driving on scooters is a big issue in those countries that have had them for a few years: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/06/rise-in-drunk-riding-fuels-munichs-call-for-e-scooter-curbs-during-oktoberfest

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I believe any motorised vehicle should require a

> licence and insurance to operate. The fact you can

> go and jump on one of these things with no

> training is ludicrous

Riders in the trial need to have a driving licence (full or provisional) before hiring a scooter and riding on the road. Riders not in the trial who have bought their own escooter and are riding on the road are breaking the law - just like someone who buys a car without a licence and rides it.

The problem with escooters is the small wheel size - one small lip on the road surface or hole and you're toast. And I say that as someone that's not totally opposed to them...yet.

[vmdgg]

I have enjoyed reading this thread descend to the hysterical Daily Mail style NIMBY viewpoint. I expected nothing less after reading the title :)

e-scooters are a common sight across the world. They are a useful way to get around the city. If you think they are unsafe, then do not use one. Please get a grip.

Also, while this might be a stupid question: are Nigello and Rockets the same person?

[exdulwicher]

Ex- there must be concern about the rise in e-scooter accidents for the Kings specialist to go to the papers about the rise and they say: "Our day case trauma surgical lists are being impacted with an increasing volume of patients needing surgery to treat complicated fractures following e-scooter collisions. The increasing costs, and their rate of increase, are a concern.?

Did Kings go to the papers and say "please help us, we're overwhelmed with scooter injuries and maybe you can do something about it"? Or did some hack ask them "how many accidents from scooters?" and they've said "196 in 2020" and the hack has generated a clickbait title with the appropriate degree of wailing and gnashing of teeth? I strongly suspect the latter...

As I said, there's no context at all.

It's not a pro-cycle lobby statement, it's a general road safety statement. I assume you are concerned about road safety? Want to reduce the numbers of people killed and injured on the roads whether they be walking across them, riding a bike / horse / scooter / mobility scooter along them or driving a vehicle along them?

Acting all outraged about an out of context number of scooter injuries while conveniently ignoring the vastly larger number of injuries caused by drivers is not addressing road safety. Start from the top down. Enabling micro-mobility is a vital part of transport decarbonisation plans.

[Rockets]

Yes but enabling micro-mobility should not be a catalyst for an increase in injuries and hospital admissions and what I find amazing is that TFL and the council roll out these grand programmes (often funded by the companies who are desperately trying to get a foothold in the market and will pay huge amounts to do a land grab) without, seemingly, a single glance to what has been happening everywhere else that e-scooters have been rolled out.

Do a search - no-one in any city where they have been rolled out seem to have much good to say about them - Paris had huge problems with injuries caused by them and reduced their max speed as a result, Munich has a massive littering problem and drunk-driving problem with them, Stockholm has banned them from parts of the city and so the list goes on.

Of course I am concerned about road safety but was surprised/not surprised by your phraseology (which is the anti-car phraseology, I mean really...it doesn't stop drivers killing 5 people each day...it's a bit pointed isn't it?) but also amazed Southwark are rolling out e-scooters. It seems that in the quest for modal shift they grasp desperately at any "solution" they can see and councils and transport authorities get awfully blinkered and make truly bizarre decisions. Does anyone here really think that once these get rolled out we won't all be saying what a pain they are or that the outcomes in other cities over the last few years won't be repeated here?

I think you should be concerned that a surgeon at Kings is concerned enough to flag the issue - 196 admissions in a year does seem a lot (but I appreciate Kings does have a large catchment area) especially considering there was no official rollout of e-scooters at that point. It makes you wonder what will happen when the council rolls-out the hire network.

Meanwhile, per Spartacus' post we read that London is now the most congested city in the world due to the installation of cycle lanes during the pandemic (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59559863), which if correct, will definitely be leading to a massive increase in pollution. A cycle charity was contacted by the BBC and they said that the research was "incredibly simplistic" and "not written by Rachel Aldred so should be ignored" - they didn't say the second bit! ;-)

[exdulwicher]

Meanwhile, per Spartacus' post we read that London is now the most congested city in the world due to the installation of cycle lanes during the pandemic (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59559863), which if correct, will definitely be leading to a massive increase in pollution.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/transport-politics/2021/12/cycle-lanes-dont-cause-congestion-but-theres-money-to-be-made-in-pretending-they-do

As I mentioned previously. Journo clickbait.

The Inrix report is here: https://inrix.com/scorecard/ - doesn't mention cycle lanes causing congestion. Peter Lees, the Operations Manager at Inrix put out a statement clarifying that the headlines had not accurately represented what the report said and actually went further quoting an unnamed journalist saying that the cycle lane comment would "get more readers".

Same with the scooter thing. INJURIES! DEATH! = Clicks and comments = ad revenue.

Journos don't care, they've got their headline and their readers. Facts come a distant second. There's a lot of money to be made in culture wars. The fact checkers are doing their work, correcting the narrative but no-one cares anymore. Opinions formed, people move on.

[Rockets]

Does the BBC do clickbait not normally their style? Their story is still up: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59559863

Funny tbe BBC story is not corrected after 10 hours...normally that only happens if the BBC are 100% happy that the headline is correct or based on the info that was sent to them. Maybe Inrix did say that but are now trying to redress the balance. Someone gave tbe outlets the story that made the headline.....they didn't make it up themselves...expect it from the Mail certainly only not the BBC - they are quick to correct any inaccuracies and have fact checkers to do that.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> what I find amazing is that TFL and

> the council roll out these grand programmes (often

> funded by the companies who are desperately trying

> to get a foothold in the market and will pay huge

> amounts to do a land grab)

1) Southwark is not "rolling out" any "grand programmes". It is a trial of fixed duration.

2) TfL didn't roll anything out and didn't want the trial. It was the (central government) Dept for Transport introduced emergency legislation to allow for the trials across the UK. A bunch of London councils said they wanted to run trials. Only then did TfL agree to play a coordination role so that at least the trials in different parts of London would be run according to the same rules and produce comparable data sets. If you actually read the TfL risk assessment, it says

?as might be expected from the introduction of a new form of motorised transport, a degree of residual risk in relation to the trial will remain even after a wide range of mitigations have been applied (which include impacts on individuals with protected characteristics and an expected increase in collisions and injuries). Nevertheless, those risks will be significantly lower than if this proposal were not to be implemented and if TfL were to play a lesser role in London with the London boroughs operating their own, fragmented, series of trials."

3) the purpose of the London trials is to give feedback to central government on whether to allow private and rental e-scooters generally.

4) what is the source of your information that the costs of TfL and the Council have been paid for by the operators?

There's a wealth of detailed information and statistics on the TfL website for anyone that's (genuinely) interested in understanding what the trial involves. https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/electric-scooter-rental-trial

[Rockets]

DKHB - in your response to 4 you know there was a tender and procurement process to select the 3 companies for the trials don't you - and that the 3 winning companies have about $1.5bn of VC money behind them globally to win the deployment goldrush? There's big money at stake here and TFL and the councils know this and use it for leverage....

Anyway, some reading on the issue for anyone that is interested: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/e-scooters-london

Also BBC article is still up, unchanged, regarding the bike lane congestion....that suggests to me someone from Inrix did actually say that......https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59559863

[Rockets]

Oh my....this from a recent PACTs report...no wonder A&Es are worried by the increase in admissions.

Experience from an emergency department In response to a rapid increase in incidences of e-scooter casualties, a service evaluation was conducted over a four-week period in May and June 2021 across Bristol.18 In that period 90 patients presented to all three Emergency Departments in the city with e-scooter related incidents. Of these 96% had been riding an e-scooter with 80% of those who declared how they were travelling riding hired devices. As in other studies, while the use of private e-scooters is illegal the fear of prosecution may deter riders from being honest about the device they use. The majority (71%) fell from their e-scooter, as opposed to being involved in a collision with another vehicle. Nearly 20% suffered head injuries with three patients sustaining severe traumatic brain injury, intracranial haemorrhage or a skull fracture. Only 7% of injured riders were helmeted. Over 80% suffered limbs injuries and over 40% suffered a fracture.

Experience of an orthopaedic surgery team Since October 2020, an audit of e-scooter casualties has been underway at the Liverpool University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust.17 To the end of July 2021, 92 people had presented to the Royal Liverpool and Aintree Hospital Emergency Departments and the Garston Urgent Care Centre and were referred to the orthopaedic team. Only one e-scooter rider had been hit by another vehicle. The rest were involved in single vehicle incidents having lost control of the device and then falling from it or colliding with a stationary object. Liverpool hosts Voi as their e-scooter operator and, of the people who declared which type of e-scooter they were riding, two thirds were using rental scheme devices. As the use of private e-scooters is illegal the fear of prosecution may have deterred riders from declaring the device they used. Of the 92 patients in the Liverpool cohort that sustained upper or lower limb fractures, 13 required surgery. Due to the nature of the audit, head injuries and casualties discharged home from the Emergency Departments with more minor injuries have not been recorded.

[first mate]

Notice e-scooters seem to have replaced biked outside ED station.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DKHB - in your response to 4 you know there was a

> tender and procurement process to select the 3

> companies for the trials don't you - and that the

> 3 winning companies have about $1.5bn of VC money

> behind them globally to win the deployment

> goldrush? There's big money at stake here and TFL

> and the councils know this and use it for

> leverage....

So just to be clear: you're NOT now saying that the costs of the Council and TfL were paid for by the rental companies?

[Rockets]

DKHB re-read my comment as that's not what I said is it? As part of the tender and procurement process for projects like e-scooter provision there will be a cost of access element i.e. the council selling its real estate (streets) for commercial companies to make money from.

These tender processes are why councils across the country have had problems with bribery and corruption in the past (councillors being directors of companies winning tenders etc, people taking bribes to influence the decision) as there are huge sums, gains and commercial survival at stake.

[ianr]

> cost of access

What does this mean here?

[Nigello]

More e-scooter (rentals) to be placed on LL, near the Superdrug, I think. (There is a poster near the zebra at M and S.)

[legalalien]

I think Rocks means that the e-scooter companies are paying TfL and the local authorities for the right to participate in the trials/ be authorised to allow the escooters on the roads? Which looks right, although no indication of the amounts involved.

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2021/W19/750649356

?This was a zero-value procurement where no fees will be paid to the operators by the Authority. Operators are not entitled to receive payment under this agreement from the administrator or any of the participating boroughs. Operators have agreed to pay the charges set out in the agreement for the opportunity to operate in the participating boroughs. Charges comprise the full service charge, the ride-through charge and the per-vehicle charge (as per spec). The structure of the charges is as set out in the Specification.?

ETA also https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/members-area/member-briefings/transport/e-scooter-trials-london

?Numerous prospective operators have indicated that they would expect to pay fees to participate in a trial, as they do to operate in other cities around the world. London Councils? officers are working together with TfL and all borough officers to understand funding requirements and to develop a fair mechanism for distributing income from fees across participating boroughs. Fees from operators could enable boroughs to fund the creation of parking areas and other infrastructure requirements, and cover associated administrative costs. Further discussions with borough officers are scheduled to take place as the proposal and commercial documents are finalised. Neither boroughs nor TfL will be paying operators to provide e-scooters for a trial.?

[Rockets]

Legal - exactly that.

The council "owns" the streets so if they want to sell space for private companies to offer e-scooter services (or any other services) then those companies have to pay for the privilege and, seemingly, for every journey made on an e-scooter thereafter.

Consider it the privatisation of our street space! ;-)

It goes, in part, to explain why the council are so keen to roll-out e-scooters (despite the clear issues with them) as it is a revenue generator for them and why medical staff are talking of their concerns (as they have to pick up the pieces).

I would love to know how much the council makes from these companies - and others like electric charging point companies Chargemaster. I don't think the finer (financial) details of the tender results are ever released are they?

[Nigello]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/09/e-scooters-banned-tfl-network-battery-fire-risk - Private e-scooters not allowed on TfL due to fire hazard.

[sweetgirl]

These are banned on any tfl services now!

Oops double post

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Consider it the privatisation of our street space!

> ;-)

If you're upset about the privatisation of street space caused by a few scooter parking bays, you're gonna be appalled when you realise how much street space has been "privatised" to store private cars.

[legalalien]

Interesting article in today?s Times about e-scooter injuries and in particular the fact that anyone injured while illegally riding an escooter on the road or footpath may not be able to sue for personal injury -there?s a test case upcoming.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/74594ca8-7002-11ec-9b00-681c4404af37?shareToken=a14fe97a19a18bfaf4e75cbfe47fdc0d

91 serious injuries and nine fatalities last year seems a lot for a mode of travel that is only in the limited trial phase.