E-scooters to come to Dulwich Park...

[Nigello]

I saw a notice pinned to a post near to the Picture Gallery entrance to the park, saying that a bay for e-scooters was to be placed very near to the bus stop there. Not impressed, given the tools that ride them (and often give rides to others) on pavements, near dogs and kids, etc. Maybe the good folk of Dulwich will be more sensible..?

[Rockets]

Oh no....is this from one of the hire companies who are licensed to offer the service?

I really think e-scooters will be a short-lived experiment that was doomed to fail from the start.

[legalalien]

Great. The last thing we need.

Interesting article in the Times on the weekend re the number of deaths and injuries they?ve had in Paris, where they are now scaling down the speed limit.

Compensation lawyers are already getting ready for a raft of claims.

[KidKruger]

Are these meant for / encouraging use within Dulwich Park?

I haven?t seen escooters being used in DP, hopefully there?s an existing rule against powered transport being allowed.

[Canteloupe]

There?s a similar sign on Lordship Lane opposite M&S?

[legalalien]

I can?t see anything in the bylaws about powered transport (other than in relation to model aircraft and helicopters), so guess there is a general rule somewhere about no unauthorised motor vehicles in the park (unlike e-bikes, e-scooters are currently classified as motor vehicles). The experimental order relating to the trial permits use of cycle infrastructure by reference to a long list of previous traffic orders relating to cycle tracks and officially designated shared pedestrian/cycle spaces https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/46153/E-scooter-trial-notice-dated-24-June-2021-.pdf, doesn?t look like anything park related.

Things can of course change if the government gives the green light to e-scooters generally. Given the LTN closures would apply to e-scooters, whose riders will not want to go the long way around, I could see a case for a designated and clearly marked cycle/ e-scooter lane across the park from Court Lane to College Road.

Short lived experiment? Let?s see. Those West Coast tech companies have a fair bit of lobbying clout, one imagines? and Uber (who part own Lime) seem to have done fairly well

to date (until they got too clever for their own good and ran up against the English courts).

[DuncanW]

And on the corner of Peckham Rye and EDR by the new kid-friendly cafe.

E-Scooters aren't ideal in many ways, but I think they are here to stay - although hopefully not in the parks where kids should be able to play without the fear of being hit by a motorised vehicle.

[Angelina]

Transport for London are introducing them and Southwark is one of the Pilot boroughs. Their e-scooters are a lot heavier (a bit like the bikes) and a lot safer.

I understand legislation is on its way.

And no, you're not allowed to ride on pavements

[Nigello]

Oh, that helps a great deal. So, they are even heavier when they plough into you and a nice sticker that tells people to wear helmets is bound to be adhered to! You see pillion passengers, including kids, on them all over the place, often on the way to school, believe it or not. If posh mummies and daddies insist on riding on the pavement on their thick-tired e-bikes, then what hope for e-scooter riders?

[Galileo]

I tried one when I had to go to Staines for work and the office I was visiting was some distance from the train station. It had ?no-go? zones built in so wouldn?t work for example in the park (nor unfortunately on the cycle Lane as it ran alongside the park - but hopefully the sensitivity of that can be adjusted). I would hope that such functionality would be built into these so that they could only be operated as a push scooter (i.e. not motorised) within park boundaries.

Interestingly the map on the relevant scooter app showed they had also designated the pedestrianised high-street as a no-go area along with the area immediately around the station - essentially anywhere that often has lots of pedestrians. Unfortunately this cannot be applied to private e-scooters, tho they are not currently legal.

[fishbiscuits]

Essentially they solve a lot of problems - quick, environmentally friendly, socially distanced transportation. But they do need infrastructure... they are unsuitable for pavements or roads. Cycle lanes in London are much improved, but the coverage is still not great.

[ab29]

There will soon be nowhere safe for people who simply want to walk.

Escooter is yet another gadget, another thing that is produced, need maintenance and will be thrown away in the end.

It does nothing for health as people just stand on it and i'ts dangerous when misused - and that happens a lot.

[Angelina]

Health wise, no they are not a form of exercise but they do get people out of cars

[hammerman]

There's an e-scooter bay been in place along the road from Denmark Hill train station a couple of months ago which is an eyesore and now a week or so ago there's been another one plonked on the pavement as you cross the road from Ruskin Park. Thanks a lot Southwark Council for being a pilot scheme! They seem to be hell bent on introducing lots of right on things like artwork in the middle of a road but neglecting their housing priorities.

[Nigello]

Another young mother with no helmet, no bell but with child as pillion passenger, racing on an e-scooter down the sloping pavement to school. Such a moron; poor kid could be maimed or killed should his "mother" get involved in an accident. Shame on her and others who think it couldn't happen to them.

[Penguin68]

Health wise, no they are not a form of exercise but they do get people out of cars

And into A&E, not infrequently. The energy they consume has to be generated, with a climate cost associated with that, and they have to be built and transported to where they are sold - that also has climate cost implications (and an existing car doesn't incur further build and transport climate costs).

As for finance, so for climate issues - you need to examine whole life costs and whole life benefits. Once cars are built and sold their initial climate costs are sunk - whereas a new scooter incurs new climate costs. ULEZ has substantially removed the most polluting vehicles from our locale (it would seem).

I suspect as 'toys' these scooters will actually generate usage as a substitute for walking or public transport, or just for fun, so they may create net additions to 'the problem'. Outwith their safety aspects.

[Angelina]

Imagine using the same measure for cars. We need to reduce the cars on the road. Scooters are a new way for people to travel, it will be across all borough, Southwark is not the only pilot borough

[Rockets]

Scooters are indeed a new way to travel but they are inherently dangerous and I suspect, unfortunately, that there will be a debate on their continued usage after A&E figures get published. The same has happened in every city where they have been rolled out. In Berlin and Munich they had huge issues with increases in A&E admissions, drunk driving on scooters and abandoned e-scooters when they were first introduced.

Paris has reduced their maximum speeds and has been threatening to ban them following a series of accidents and incidents.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57664420

I really can't see how the issues experienced elsewhere won't be repeated here and I find it amazing that TFL and councils are happy to roll these out fully aware of the issues across Europe.

[Angelina]

Yes, agreed, lots of things to get right with the legislation

[Penguin68]

Imagine using the same measure for cars.

Indeed, I would advocate a 'whole life costs/ whole life benefits' analysis in general - as I would a 'whole life costs, whole life revenues' analysis in determining product or customer profitability.

We need to reduce the cars on the road

Why? As a matter of principle or faith? We also (see Attenborough et al) 'need' to reduce the number of people - but I haven't seem him volunteering to start the trend. The right cars (as to propulsion fuel, size, weight etc.) are entirely acceptable to me. There may be types of vehicle which I would choose not to support. But cars and the ability to travel without let or hinderance (within reason) seems a reasonable freedom to want to retain. The idea that we all become locked into our own locales, traveling no more than we can walk or cycle (with TfL's funding complaints and where we are here almost the only alternative now open to us), accepting that age and disability will restrict those freedoms, is to launch ourselves back into Middle Ages primitivism which I'm sure Swedish teenagers long for, knowing no better, but which 70 years and more of real life have told me is not something to be wished for.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> The idea that we all

> become locked into our own locales, traveling no

> more than we can walk or cycle...which 70 years and more of real

> life have told me is not something to be wished

> for.

You are criticising an idea that you yourself have invented and that no-one (Swedish or otherwise) is proposing.

[malumbu]

Shame that this thread is generally attracting those with a disdain for e-scooters. I may not like them myself, and appreciate that legalising/accommodating them on our roads is difficult, but they are here to stay, like it or not.

A pity that the demographic posting on this site does not include those that like/have e-scooters. Not that I am in that I hasten to say.

Anyway, a nice distraction from the LTN thread.

[Penguin68]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> The idea that we all

> become locked into our own locales, traveling no

> more than we can walk or cycle...which 70 years and more of real

> life have told me is not something to be wished

> for.

You are criticising an idea that you yourself have invented and that no-one (Swedish or otherwise) is proposing.

By carefully excising the words between 'cycle' and 'which' - you remove my subsidiary argument that with the existing poor (and threatened worse) TfL provision locally the opportunities (without car usage) of people to get about become very limited - to walking or cycling, unless you happen to live close to a station (I am a 20 minutes, hilly, walk from one). Our own dear Greta would love us all just to walk or cycle - as would numbers of those who are being allowed to influence road planning decisions locally (from another thread Health professionals aren't). And if you think that no one is proposing such an idea - how does this square with the Southwark Labour Party's avowed objective to drive (sic) private car ownership out of Southwark? - With poor and getting worse local public transport provision (and rising costs of taxis, and decreasing availability) walking and cycling is increasingly where it's (hoped) to be at. Throwing e-scooters into the equation gets us nowhere (other than A&E).

[Rockets]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Penguin68 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > The idea that we all

> > become locked into our own locales, traveling

> no

> > more than we can walk or cycle...which 70 years

> and more of real

> > life have told me is not something to be wished

> > for.

>

> You are criticising an idea that you yourself have

> invented and that no-one (Swedish or otherwise) is

> proposing.

DKHB - you are obviously not aware of the 15-minute City concept being touted by the mayor of Paris and by many in London as the solution to all our woes!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Penguin68 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> the Southwark Labour

> Party's avowed objective to drive (sic) private

> car ownership out of Southwark?

Another idea you've invented.