Genuine question

[TheCat]

DuncanW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, that is quite inaccurate.

>

> Almost half (46%) of female homicides are domestic

> violence related.

>

> In year ending March 2020, 154 male homicides were

> perpetrated by a stranger, plus another 29 where

> no suspect has been charged.

>

> There was a total of 188 murders of females in the

> same period.

>

> If you are male, you are more likely to be

> murdered by someone you have never met, not the

> other way round.

>

> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit

> y/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwal

> es/yearendingmarch2020

Those statistics must be the work of 'provocative bastards' with an agenda. Anyone with any objectivity can see that.

The whole tone of the statistics are petty. By simply mentioning the facts, it must mean one doesnt care about women being killed.

[JohnL]

You can see violence in some men's eyes (and very very rarely in a womans)

Jeremy Bamber series on TV just now - his eyes say guilty then and now - how he has a fan club I don't know.

[Pugwash]

i recall an incident many years ago when a friend of my daughter was out (she was late teen or early 20s) when a man grabbed her handbag.She gave chase, grabbed back her bag and punched him on the nose! Mind you she was nearly 6 feet tall and heavy built.

I worry about my 17 year old grandson when he is out and about, but now my 22 year old granddaughter is newly appointed NHS worker doing 12 hour shifts from 7 am - 7 pm- I worry about her as she walks to work as no public transport from her house until she gets to the A21. She tells me that there are many people around at 6.15 am on the A21 and she feels safe.

[KidKruger]

Sarah Everard murder: Wayne Couzens handed whole-life sentence https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614

?Men matter too?

[Jules-and-Boo]

What is did to her is unimaginable. He tricked her first of all and handcuffed her. She had no chance to defend herself at all.

The impact statements of her family are heartbreaking.

Of course men matter, but it?s a different story for women.

Sarah was just walking home.

[hjt32]

You know when you click on a thread and then wish you had never read it because it has been started by someone who has no interest in understanding. Anyone who did would go away and do the reading, do the work. Not antagonise a bunch of strangers into commenting on a flawed premise.

It is all male violence.

Stop trying to take attention away from male violence against women. Your agenda here is to falsely equate the issues when their causes are not the same.

If you will insist on making a comparison, compare to the rates of female violence against men or male sexual violence against men.

But I have no idea why any comparisons need to be made, they are all awful. It is not a competition.

END MALE VIOLENCE.

CALL OUT MISOGYNY.

[Angelina]

well said.

[Nigello]

Do the reading, do the work - what exactly does this mean? Is there an arbiter of how much work should be done and to what level? What do we read? Is there a lending library for this reading? Will there be penalties for not reading the reading? (Subtext - preachy and cliche-ey doesn't win people over - especially those who are harder to reach and convince - to what is very much a necessary cause and one which deserves highlighting and addressing. Trendy, empty, Twitter-friendly slogans don't help; proper signposting to where this knowledge can be gleaned does.)

[hjt32]

So not only do I have to endure the fear, harassment and misogyny that goes with being a woman, but you want me to provide a reading list as well?

The burden of education should be on men, not women.

But since you asked so nicely, i did a google search for you:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/books-that-every-man-should-read-as-recommended-by-women-writers-1.2807403

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/02/how-to-be-good-man-me-too-month-reading-feminist-classics

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/g35408475/best-feminist-books/

https://www.nypl.org/books-more/recommendations/essential-feminism/adults

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/17/the-time-for-men-to-step-up-is-right-now-what-all-men-can-do-to-help-end-violence-against-women

[diable rouge]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Trendy, empty, Twitter-friendly slogans don't help

Neither does facetious posts...

[Nigello]

t is up to you how you respond. If you choose to read into my post that I want you to continue to feel fear, etc. etc. I have no control over that and respect your decision to respond with that (baseless) thought. Like I said, you don't win people over to a necessary cause (or even confirm the support they have already given) by chanting slogans and taking a condescending tone.

[hjt32]

I take your point that the first sentence was clunky and I have now edited to be clearer. I hope that helps.

[hjt32]

I am not looking to 'win' people over. I shouldn't have to, that is not my personal responsibility. I am angry and sad.

In order to help, if that is something you are interested in, you will need to stop being so defensive and diversionary.

[KidKruger]

To be clear, my post was referring to the dubious OP !

And yes, the court hearing was harrowing.

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What is did to her is unimaginable. He tricked her

> first of all and handcuffed her. She had no chance

> to defend herself at all.

>

> The impact statements of her family are

> heartbreaking.

>

> Of course men matter, but it?s a different story

> for women.

> Sarah was just walking home.

[TheCat]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To be clear, my post was referring to the dubious

> OP !

> And yes, the court hearing was harrowing.

>

>

> Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What is did to her is unimaginable. He tricked

> her

> > first of all and handcuffed her. She had no

> chance

> > to defend herself at all.

> >

> > The impact statements of her family are

> > heartbreaking.

> >

> > Of course men matter, but it?s a different

> story

> > for women.

> > Sarah was just walking home.

You know what. You are disgusting person. How dare you post that report of Sarah Everard death and use it as leverage to uggest I don't care about this sort of thing. I actually started reading the accounts this morning, and couldn't finish them it was so upsetting and disgusting. And here you are, acting all high and mighty becuase I expressed a concern for the coverage of men's deaths in the media. How you get from there to here I've no idea.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

It?s what you do all the time to people though. You poke them hornet?s nest and then walk stating that you didn?t. You like provoking then gets insulted when the tables are turned.

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > To be clear, my post was referring to the

> dubious

> > OP !

> > And yes, the court hearing was harrowing.

> >

> >

> > Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > What is did to her is unimaginable. He

> tricked

> > her

> > > first of all and handcuffed her. She had no

> > chance

> > > to defend herself at all.

> > >

> > > The impact statements of her family are

> > > heartbreaking.

> > >

> > > Of course men matter, but it?s a different

> > story

> > > for women.

> > > Sarah was just walking home.

>

> You know what. You are disgusting person. How dare

> you post that report of Sarah Everard death and

> use it as leverage to uggest I don't care about

> this sort of thing. I actually started reading the

> accounts this morning, and couldn't finish them it

> was so upsetting and disgusting. And here you are,

> acting all high and mighty becuase I expressed a

> concern for the coverage of men's deaths in the

> media. How you get from there to here I've no

> idea.

>

> You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Alan Medic]

When I see 'Genuine question', my reaction is that usually it isn't. How many women murder men? How man men need to take precautions to just get home safely? How many men even have to think like that? This case is so horrific is why it is being reported so widely. How anyone can even ask what they call a 'genuine question' in these circumstances is beyond me.

[malumbu]

The genuine question was whether there is equal reporting.

You could say the same about whether white lives matter more than black

Or young more than old.

You could see it as a brave question, or crass timing.

However you dress it up some will take offence.

You are welcome to look at my views on this question - I expect the original poster can defend him or her self.

There are some enormous questions about society, trust in the police and dare I say political opportunism.

[TheCat]

The original post was made last Sunday, a good 3-4 days before the further harrowing details of Sarah Everard's kidnapping and murder starting hitting the headlines.

The genuine question was also not asking whether women suffer at the hands of evil men like Wayne Couzens. It was specifically asking about media coverage in light of a specific news bulletin.

And to those seeking to extrapolate my original comment, and wilfully misrepresent it as a means of branding me as uncaring, misogynistic or provocative - I say it is you with the agenda here, not I.

[Angelina]

I'd say the crimes against women are different in nature and are reported differently.

It's less often that men are sexually assaulted/ raped/ randomly physically attacked by a stranger.

If the OP can find details of similar crimes against men / women we can then compare the reporting of them and understand why they think there is a disparity

[diable rouge]

Angelina Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If the OP can find details of similar crimes

> against men / women we can then compare the

> reporting of them and understand why they think

> there is a disparity

This is the main flaw with the OP, a lack of context.

One of the reasons the SE case received such a (as the OP put it) 'fanfare' in the news, was not just the nature of the crime but also who carried it out, namely a serving Met police officer, the very people who are supposed to be protecting us. For that reason alone it was always going to create more attention, so I'm not sure why the need to question it...

[TheCat]

Angelina Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd say the crimes against women are different in

> nature and are reported differently.

>

> It's less often that men are sexually assaulted/

> raped/ randomly physically attacked by a

> stranger.

>

> If the OP can find details of similar crimes

> against men / women we can then compare the

> reporting of them and understand why they think

> there is a disparity

First of all. Thank-you for the measured, and non-aggressive post. It makes a nice change of pace.

I totally agree that 'crimes' against men and women are often differentially motivated. And that is perhaps a slightly separate issue to explore, as distinct from the OP.

But to your point on finding details of similar crimes, I believe the OP did specifically cite examples of 3 of the exact same crime....3 murders...all reported (and all 'new' news on that day) in the news on the same day recently, with a stark difference in coverage on that occasion (For clarity, the SE murder was NOT one of the murders being referred to on that day, as the OP clearly states).

As an aside...I think it was well covered earlier in this thread (by other posters) that men are much more likely to be attacked/murdered by a stranger than women; and that the lions share of physical attacks on women were by people known to them. Is that perhaps the answer to the whole question? that is it indeed the rarity of a women being randomly murdered in the street that makes it more newsworthy than more regular random male murders? (for the sake of clarity to the boarder audience, I am specifically talking about murders here, not street harassment or intimidation, which are also of significant concern, and I in no way wish to minimise or dimisss)

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Angelina Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > If the OP can find details of similar crimes

> > against men / women we can then compare the

> > reporting of them and understand why they think

> > there is a disparity

>

> This is the main flaw with the OP, a lack of

> context.

>

> One of the reasons the SE case received such a (as

> the OP put it) 'fanfare' in the news, was not just

> the nature of the crime but also who carried it

> out, namely a serving Met police officer, the very

> people who are supposed to be protecting us. For

> that reason alone it was always going to create

> more attention, so I'm not sure why the need to

> question it...

Um...once again...please read the OP...where the specific example given was not the murder of Sarah Everard. Which I completely agree warrants a more involved public discussion for a multitude of reasons.

[diable rouge]

Point taken, but in light of, and the closeness, of the SE case, is it really surprising that another woman randomly attacked and murdered drew such attention? Again, without adding context of the male murders you cited, it becomes a pretty pointless exercise...

[TheCat]

Thank you DR. Thank f@ck for that:)...this thread finally got somewhere....

Yes, I agree totally that is indeed a very plausible reason for the difference in coverage....its nice that after so many posts we get some discussion on the actual question, rather than mostly just having a go at the person that asked it!

Given most of this thread I've been defending myself, rather than discussing the question....I've thought about the answer to the question a lot myself (as it really was a genuine question!).....and I think that clearly the similarities with the SE is probably the main driver for the difference in coverage on that day. There's also the rarity of the random murder issue I mention above & there's the middle class nature of the victim (being a school teacher) which obviously is likely to resonate with many in the media.

The point of asking the question was to find out what the broader community thought on the issue, not to promote an agenda, and not to prompt an unnecessary battle around whether uncomfortable questions are allowed to be asked or not....

Any other reasons anyone cares to raise?

(PS: on your question of context for the male murders i mentioned. IM afraid due to the brief nature of the coverage, I cant provide any. And that was sort of what prompted the initial question - someone's son/brother/father/husband has just been killed in a nearby neighbourhood (at least one othem was also south London), and I couldnt even tell you their names or the circumstances. If I had to guess from the momentary footage and memory, I'd say they may have been gang related....which of course opens up an entirely different set of issues for discussion)