Fine for enterting no entry zone in Peckham (Lounged)

[wagtap]

Is revenue generation a deterrent (in response to LuvPeckham)?

It may be: I could fine you one thousand pound for being late to work. It might work, but you would hold me in contempt for being utterly disproportionate.

Criminals get more lenient treatment than this.

[*Bob*]

I got fined for a late VAT return once.

I explained to them that my grandparents had fought in a war, but unfortunately they insisted on me paying the fine.

[wagtap]

Thanks *Bob*. My grandfather fought in a war for the upkeep of freedom, not the petty application of rule and regulation, monitored by the overbearing state, facilitated by the Orwellian imposition of cameras all over the place, endlessly justified by the same old excuse - "?f you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear".

You just live with the fear of doing something 'wrong'. That's not a very good place to be - in a society where the making of mistakes is summarily punished. And who defines what 'wrong' is? A govt that represents less than half the country? A local council that's barely elected at all? Manned by people with little or no experience of real life.

I regularly go to West Africa, where there are far less rules and regs. Generally, if it isn't harming anyone, nobody cares. They have other things to worry about.

The sense of freedom is quite incredible.

They are genuinely shocked when they hear about the pettiness of life in the UK at the moment.

[*Bob*]

So you're saying he fought in a war so that you'd be able to go through the entry sign in Peckham whenever you pleased?

Blimey. My Grandad was far more selfish. I think he just got called-up, so he had to go.

Are there any other problems in West Africa which the inhabitants might trade-in for the occasional 'no entry' fine, do you think?

[zephyr]

Speed cameras do have a deterrant effect - bear in mind that only 25% of them are 'in use' at any one time (the actual cameras are moved around between camera - they retain the flash unit).

I got done for speeding recently - not proud of it - caught on a camera at 36mph in a 30mph zone.

I can say categorically that the policy is currently NOT to enforce 20mph zones (I learnt this on the speed awareness course I was sent on as my punishment). A speed camera therefore would be as big a waste of time as the one on Brenchley gardens!

[wagtap]

*Bob* - thanks, mate, for those facetious remarks.

If you can't see how petty fines are linked to bigger problems and curtailment of perspective, freedoms and tolerance, then there's no point continuing...please feel 'free' to vote your way into a Police State. Surveillance camera fines for petty infringments are the thin end of a fat, ugly wedge. Surely you can see that?

Meanwhile, I would happily trade (and frequently do) the meaningless luxuries of comfy Western living for the ability to live without continued persecution of whatever kind...

[*Bob*]

I'm just extrapolating the thread further into the ridiculous... a process you started.

A thread starts-out with a no entry sign infringement leading to an annoying fine - and ends with a no entry sign which is an affront to the democratic process, our glorious dead and (probably, soon..) GOD.

Let's not forget it's just a no entry sign.

The question is: will you drive through it again?

[zephyr]

I have to agree with *Bob* - I think you are taking it a bit far.

[Rockets]

It would be interesting to press the council to reveal where their camera "hot spots" are i.e. which cameras generate most revenue, sorry I mean fines!

I have been caught by that camera and had the fine. I suspect that camera must be their number one best earner or something close which would beg the question as to whether the council ever takes steps to make it clearer for drivers when one spot "catches" so many. I was in an Addison Lee cab the other day who went through the same junction - I warned him as we went down Rye Lane but the "Buses Only" signs are not at all clear and when people are using Sat Navs it ignores that 30 yards of Southwark Council Fine Heaven!!!

[Huguenot]

The problem with discretion Wagtap, is that we're often not well enough informed to make the right decision.

According to DOT road death statistics, there is less than 1% of the traffic on our roads at 4am than there is at 9am (for example). However, the number of road traffic injuries is 10% of the 9am period.

That means you're 10 times more likely to suffer death or serious injury during a journey made at 4am than you are at school arrival time.

Presumably that's because of twerps doing 50mph in 30mph in built up areas irrespective of the fact that visibility is lower and pedestrians more inclined to unpredictable behviour.

I mean, God forbid you'd run our transport policy if you think you can go careering the wrong way down no entry signs whenever you feel like it. How many corpses will you leave in your wake? In your twisted logic presumably it's their fault for looking the wrong way?

I can see your strategies leaving us with no traffic management, gridlock, sky-high mortality rates, and you whinging that the reason why it's happened is that not everyone's as clever as you?

[wagtap]

Aah Hugeunot, me ol' presumptious pal

The 'No Entry' sign in question (sorry to deflate your balloon here) has nothing to do with going the wrong way down a one-way street or any such like. It is a 'No Entry' except for buses - ie, bus only. No pedestrian lives at risk with this one, I'm happy to say.

Thanks for your stats - I'm sure I can produce something similar. How's about the fact that speed cameras have made no difference to road mortality rates - still lurking around the 3500 mark, unchanged for 10 yrs...?

I'm amazed at how many people on here are happy to have their lives monitored by the witless in government, local or national. CCTV has exploded nationwide under new Labour (old Soviets) - and people keep voting for them.

Some CCTV is useful - granted. However, much like the anti-terrorist laws used for bin-spying, they're the thin end of wedge that those who are 'more equal than others' are all to happy to abuse...

[SeanMacGabhann]

I would put that down PRECISELY to cameras, given the explosion in car use in even those 10 years

But what it all means really is that too many drivers drive dangerously - that's the reason/need for cameras - many of us actively dislike them as well

[wagtap]

Aah Hugeunot, me ol' presumptious pal

The 'No Entry' sign in question (sorry to deflate your balloon here) has nothing to do with going the wrong way down a one-way street or any such like. It is a 'No Entry' except for buses - ie, bus only. No pedestrian lives at risk with this one, I'm happy to say.

Thanks for your stats - I'm sure I can produce something similar. How's about the fact that speed cameras have made no difference to road mortality rates - still lurking around the 3500 mark, unchanged for 10 yrs...?

I'm amazed at how many people on here are happy to have their lives monitored by the witless in government, local or national. CCTV has exploded nationwide under new Labour (old Soviets) - and people keep voting for them.

Some CCTV is useful - granted. However, much like the anti-terrorist laws used for bin-spying, they're the thin end of wedge that those who are 'more equal than others' are all to happy to abuse...

By the way - interesting issue you have raised about pedestrians not looking the right way - one reason one doesn't have oodles of time to soak up endless road signage is that one is looking out for the many pedestrians who are wandering around, fairly aimlessly, plugged into their MP3 players or mobile phones, completely oblivious to what's going on on the roads as they cross...often hooded, uterly unobservant.

[wagtap]

Traffic cops have always been and always will be better than cameras...and if driving is generally so bad, then we need to adapt the Driving Lessons Handbook accordingly and provide better training to drivers before they take their tests.

Interesting article on Top Gear recently about the stringent training of new drivers in Iceland - making them much better prepared for the roads than their counterparts in Britain...

[tiger ranks]

Got captured there last week following the bus did not see the sign gonna pay the fine somebody is not going to get a cristmas present (6)

[*Bob*]

There's no problem with discussing the merits of whether or not there ought to be a 'no entry' sign in a particular spot. Nowt wrong with that.

The ridiculous onewayisation of Peckham is one one the (many) reasons why the 'town centre' has a particularly rubbish feel to it - in my opinion anyway.

But there is one. And it's primary purpose is not to snoop on citizens going about their business, or keep the council in post-it notes, or because we live in a police state, or because we live in an intolerant society, or to fight terrorism or to stop carnage and mayhem on that would otherwise result if cars were allowed to pass; it's just there because it's 'buses only' and you have to drive around it.

The fine is there because no-one would give a hoot if there wasn't a consequence to driving through it.

[Keef]

And who defines what 'wrong' is? A govt that represents less than half the country?

Yeah, I am totally sure that any other party would immediately open up the road for you!

Come on, the TITLE of this thread says Peckham, it's clearly not about East Dulwich, and it's a load ofshite, please chuck it in the Lounge where hopefully it'll be forgotten and disappear!

[*Bob*]

The 'it aint fair!' line which gets trotted out in these circumstances a bit odd. It's not like you don't have a choice as to whether you get fined or not.

It's not fair that poorer peeps with electricity meters have to pay more for their energy, because they don't have a choice. It's not fair that you get more tax relief if you're married than you do if you're unmarried. It's not fair that Lenny Henry still gets work from the BBC.

Indeed, being (as it is) an inanimate object, unable to distinguish class, race, wealth or religion, I'd say that the 'no entry' sign in Peckham might possibly be the fairest thing in London right now.

Before The Sign, we are all equal. Amen.

[wagtap]

OK, guys, time to lose the semantics, we'll be here forever.

Point is, loads of people get 'done' by this junction - therefore it's clearly not well designed.

So, note to council: stop happily sitting back raking in the cash and sort it out. Be of service to the public you are supposed to be serving...

[RosieH]

wagtap Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting article on Top Gear recently ...

See, told you.

Those gormless plebs wandering around plugged into their mp3 players are probably keeping an eye out for bloody great big red buses (much harder to miss in your peripheral vision than a humble motorcycle, especially when that's all you're expecting)

And the council IS supporting its public - the reason it's buses only down that stretch of road is to make public transport run faster and smoother, serving precisely those members of their public who can't afford (or choose not) to drive around town. And more power to its elbow I say.

[wagtap]

Rosie - I don't care about it being 'Buses only'. I care about being ripped off by councils who already rake in far too much council tax and deliver too little due to massive incompetence in spending public money...one of these rip-offs is this dodgy junction - I have stood there and watched the surveillance camera working its evil - very slick little operation.

As for "those gormless plebs wandering around" (oblivious pedestrians) as you so nicely put it - I came to a halt the other day as a truly gormless smother pushed her buggy-bound child into the street without looking for traffic beforehand because she was on her mobile phone. Poor child...idiot mother.

This is BASIC stuff - there is no defending the growing inability to cross a road properly. Jeez.

Goodnight.

[Huguenot]

Lol wagtap - Elvis has left the building.

A note on your stats - the KSI figures (killed or seriously injured) showing massive reductions since the early nineties with the onset of more pro-active traffic management measures such as speed traps.

As with Jeremy Clarkson, you cherry pick your figures to pursue a self-indulgent and destructive lifestyle that harms other people. It's called denial. Even so, your figures are tatty - there was less than 3,000 (2,940 - down 6% YOY) deaths last year. It's been dropping steadily from 3,500 deaths 5 years ago.

For your perusal, here's figures for the last 15 years or so. I apologise that I don't have the last couple of years as I couldn't be bothered to pay for them. I can assure you that the trend has continued.

In support of SMG's observation on increased traffic, the data proves that to be the case also.

There were 10,600 KSI (killed or seriously injured) per 100 million vehicle kilometres on the 94-98 average. Then we had:

1997: 10,439

1998: 9,827

1999: 9,123

2000: 9,255

2001: 8,879

2002: 8,543

2003: 7,941

2004: 7,237

As again, I haven't paid for the latest figures (as with overall deaths they've continued to drop), but I'd describe that as a complete vindication of the current traffic management policies.

As someone else explained, pedestrians crossing at the no entry sign in Peckham will be on the look out for buses, not white knuckle camera dodgers. You'll kill someone.

[wagtap]

Aah, mornin Hugues - you and I would have a great time down the pub.

Thankyou for your stats - I coul deasily produce some counter-figures...if I had nothing better to do I'd list many reasons why Speed sCameras are a poor solution to traffic management, but let me point out their major weakness: they do not detect bad driving, they merely measure speed.

It is not speed that is dangerous, it is inappropriate speed. I was knocked off my motorbike recently by some old fella who was probably distracted by too many road signs and was probably using his peripheral vision to look out for traffic as he pulled out of a sideroad straight into my path, writing off my motorbike and sending me rolling down the road into oncoming traffic. His speed - probably less than 20 mph. No camera was interested. Cameras are too simple. And before you suggest otherwise (you do have a tendency to be presumptuous), I was under the 30mph speed limit.

And as for the pedestrians crossing at the 'no entry' who are, as you suggest, only looking out for buses - why are they not looking out for cyclists, who are also allowed to use that junction?

Perhaps that's why so many cyclists and motorcyclists get knocked off - because of the muppets out there (in cars, taxis, vans, lorries, and on foot) who are only looking out for big red buses and using their 'peripheral vision' at junctions or when crossing the road. Dear me.

It is those muppets who kill people - not me. I have my eyes peeled (as most cyclists and motorcyclists will tell you) for anyone and everything who may jump out in front, swerve, pull a sudden u-turn or slam their brakes on to look into a shop window or pull out of nowhere without looking. It's no wonder we on two wheels don't have all the time in the world to take in the excessive amount of pavement-cluttering signage.

If people more attention to what's happening on the road rather than soaking up the endless signage, your graph lines would plummet.

[*Bob*]

wagtap Wrote:

> If people more attention to what's happening on

> the road rather than soaking up the endless

> signage, your graph lines would plummet.

Do you remember the Highway Code?

It's that book with all the signs in it.

I'm a motorcycist too, so I'm well versed on all the usual routines about 'being required to go that little bit faster', 'be the last one to go over a red light', 'have various rules not apply me for some reason' etc etc. Been there said that.

[wagtap]

I've never trotted out any of those lines, actually Bob, you might have...but you're missing the point.

Not altogether surprising...