Whateley Road zebra crossing works

[bonaome]

Details here

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/49176/whateley-road-new-zebra-crossing-notice-dated-15-july-2021-.pdf

It looks like the notice for this was posted 15th July. As far as I am aware there was no consultation (I guess there doesn't have to be?) about the plans.

I have absolutely no objection to a zebra on Whateley (I know lots of people have asked for one over the years) but the whole scheme is completely over the top. The pavement widening is madness - just wholly impractical. On the west side (the bit nearer LL) they have built it to the camber of the road. But there's no draining or new gully where it meets the pavement. Where is rain water supposed to go?

It's really badly designed.

Couldn't they have just put the zebra in, and left it at that?

Or is it just me? Am I missing some benefits of the rest of it?

[Monkey]

I don?t know about the water issue but I welcome the pavement widening. I?m noticing more and more appalling driving in the area and I think it important to take any measure necessary to slow down cars.

[Pugwash]

Impossible at this point to get 2 buses passing each other.

[jazzer]

Another bizarre decision by LB Southwark to slow down and bottle neck traffic.

Does Whateley Road really need a zebra crossing?

But why widen the pavement to the extent it stops buses passing each other, utter madness, the lunatics really are running the asylum at LBS.

[kiera]

I believe that, when it's finished, it will make it much easier for two buses to pass each other. This is because the scheme removes some car parking space. I queried the plans around the time of the consultation because I was concerned that they hadn't considered the P13 buses, but they helpfully sent me drawings and measurements to show that two buses will be able to pass each other at the built-out curbs. The new curbs will not take up as much road space as the parked cars which they displace. It was demonstrated to me that it will actually improve the road for the P13s by providing this much needed passing place .

[Eucaly]

Thank you for the clarification Kiera. So contrary to previous comment, it seems that this is not 'another bizarre decision by LB Southwark', that it will not 'stop buses passing each other' and that it is not 'utter madness'.

[Penguin68]

...time will tell...

[jazzer]

Can I suggest taking a look at the built out kerbs, based on Friday's experience I can't see this being possible, but as P68 has said, time will tell..............

[bonaome]

The bit on Fellbrigg, with the planter - now full of soil - is on an angle which I would estimate is about 10 deg.

It looks like something Basil Fawltey's builder would do.

[bonaome]

According to the data on crashmap, there have been 2 incidents on that stretch of road in the last ten years. One involving 1 vehicle and 1 casualty and 1 involving 2 vehicles and 1 casualty. In both cases the severity of the incident is recorded as 'slight'.

As such, I do not think there was a strong 'safety' rationale for this project.

[bonaome]

kiera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I believe that, when it's finished, it will make

> it much easier for two buses to pass each other.

> This is because the scheme removes some car

> parking space. I queried the plans around the time

> of the consultation because I was concerned that

> they hadn't considered the P13 buses, but they

> helpfully sent me drawings and measurements to

> show that two buses will be able to pass each

> other at the built-out curbs. The new curbs will

> not take up as much road space as the parked cars

> which they displace. It was demonstrated to me

> that it will actually improve the road for the

> P13s by providing this much needed passing place .

As the drawing I've linked to shows, the build out is wider than the space a parked car would take up (unless you've got Jeremy Clarkson's Lamborghini tractor, of course). I don't know what Jedi mind trick they were trying to pull when they sent you measurements, but as far as I know a narrower road space will make it harder for two buses to pass each other. Unless perhaps the buses are also being narrowed.

However, as you are more likely to see a tiger on Whateley Road than a P13, let alone two at the same time, buses passing each other probably isn't really an issue.

The lake that will be created whenever there's a heavyish bit of rain, and the fact that you can't see what you're doing when trying to navigate turning from Fellbrigg into Whateley or from Whateley into Fellbrigg, will however I fear be an issue.

[jazzer]

The road modifications will result in buses pulling over as they do to let each other and other traffic pass by. I use the P13 every week through Whateley Road, all this will succeed in is to create a bottle neck. Personally I can't see the need for a zebra crossing being located there but residents may well have other opinions about this and good reason for wanting one. Perhaps because of the primary school located on the corner of Whately and LL it was thought necessary????

[KidKruger]

Buses pass frequently on Whateley - just to clear that up.

If someone hasn?t seen that happen, then they just haven?t seen that happen.

I have, often. So it does happen.

And yes, the pseudo-science someone was sent regarding ?increased? space for buses passing because of wider pavements doesn?t make sense.

[tiddles]

They have spent god knows how much and taken weeks to do bugger all. Could they not have just painted black and white lines to create a crossing zebra crossing. Utter waste of our time and money by the current idiot incumbents

[redjam]

Those built-out bits are definitely wider than an average car. And in fact there'll be less room for buses to pass because they used to be able to pull over at the entrances to Fellbrigg/Cyrena Road (as there were double yellow lines around the junction) but now the roads are built out there's actually less room to pull in than before unless they mount the kerb. Gonna be fun.

I'm actually in favour of having a crossing there as there are two primary schools nearby and that road is always tricky to cross in the mornings. But the council is gaslighting us if they say they've considered the buses in their plans.

[kiera]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Buses pass frequently on Whateley - just to clear

> that up.

> If someone hasn?t seen that happen, then they just

> haven?t seen that happen.

> I have, often. So it does happen.

>

> And yes, the pseudo-science someone was sent

> regarding ?increased? space for buses passing

> because of wider pavements doesn?t make sense.

Sorry if I didn't explain very well.

I queried the plans because I was concerned that the road space around the junction was being narrowed without the provision of a space for buses to pull in to allow other vehicles to pass. However, the figures I was given by Southwark's transport engineer showed that buses should be able to pass each other at this point without the need to pull in. He explained that, although the road is approx. 9m. wide, only 5.4m was available for traffic, due to parked cars on both sides of the road. He said Government guidelines advise that buses need a minimum width of 3m in each lane. In redesigning the junction for the zebra crossing this was taken into consideration, so that each lane will be 3.2m wide. So I'm expecting the new increased available road width of 6.5m to make life easier for the bus drivers.

[Pugwash]

What will happen to the traffic lights?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

bonaome Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> As the drawing I've linked to shows, the build out

> is wider than the space a parked car would take up... I don't know what Jedi mind

> trick they were trying to pull when they sent you

> measurements, but as far as I know a narrower road

> space will make it harder for two buses to pass

> each other.

As the drawing you have linked to shows, the road is 6.5m wide at the buildout on Whately Rd and 6m wide on Fellbrig and Cyrena. The buildout is wider than a car but there is still sufficient width because parking on the side of the street opposite the buildout will be prohibited - as the drawing you have linked to also shows.

Your sarcasm and stories of tigers and Jeremy Clarkson are totally misplaced.

#SouthwarkDerangementSyndrome

[jazzer]

So went pat this evening, the council have extended the kerb excessively and the only way two buses will pass is if one of them goes right up against the kerb, otherwise IMO no chance.

[Nigello]

I think a crossing there is a good idea because there are two schools very nearby and the road, although it has two names, links Lordship, Barry and (kind of) Forest Hill Roads so is pretty busy. Perhaps when the buses are replaced the operator will choose a slightly smaller, more compact one? The P13 is really valuable but it's noisy and seems to be very mostly 1/3 or 1/3 full.

[smooch]

the P13 used to be a shopper hopper type bus that was then moved to the current model.

during term time the bus is used by ALOT of school children travelling to dulwich college, kingsdale and elm green - in fact they were often completely full. I remember a thread many years ago about asking TFL to increase the frequency during school times to accommodate the childrens' travel.

[bonaome]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> there is still sufficient width

> because parking on the side of the street opposite

> the buildout will be prohibited - as the drawing

> you have linked to also shows.

>

> Your sarcasm and stories of tigers and Jeremy

> Clarkson are totally misplaced.

> #SouthwarkDerangementSyndrome

There were previously double yellow lines there on both sides (not shown in the drawing to which I have linked). The road _is_ narrower at that pinch point with less space for two vehicles to pass each other (be they buses or other traffic) than at that junction than previously.

I don't think buses passing each other on Whateley Road, was, is, or will be a problem, regardless of the actual service frequency of the P13.

I support the zebra. I think it'll make some parents feel reassured enough to allow some younger kids to walk all the way to school by themselves.

I think the pavement build out at the junction east of the zebra is a ridiculous waste of money, and very poorly designed.

[edbloke]

I?m glad something is being done at that junction, as it?s on an key route for kids to two schools and is not a friendly place to cross.

Whateley Road though will only ever be safe to cross, if 100% of drivers respect the 20mph speed limit. Sadly many drivers don?t. If they did, I guess all these works would not have been required in the first place.

Whether building out kerbs and losing a load of parking spaces will make drivers slow down, only time will tell.

Having looked at what has been built, I very much doubt it.

[bonaome]

There have been only two collisions in the last ten years on Whateley Road, each of them involving one casualty, both incidents recorded as 'slight' in severity.

[Sue]

I live round the corner.

I've only just seen this crossing.

The whole thing seems bizarre to me. The road is not a busy one, and I can't see any need for a zebra crossing in that position. Have I missed something?