PCN for driving in Dulwich village, help please!

[renarde]

I wonder if there is a specific group for this. I got done at the roundabout in College road in may. I hadn't driven that way since before the lockdown and was collecting food and supplies for SDCAS, an essential local charity. My satnav (Google) didn't show any alternative route). I am determined to fight this one. anyone can help me do that?

I would rather donate the #65 to the charity i volunteer for to buy essential groceries for destitute clients!.

I wonder if anyone has successfully fought such a case. My representation has been rejected and i am going to appeal.

All best

Annie

[tomskip]

Hello, have a look at the thread in this link and in particular the very good posts from poster boomshake22 on 28th April. Hope this is helpful

https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,2180997,page=1

[adam16]

Also received one myself but simple answer is I am not going to pay it. They can pursue it all day long they won't succeed. Southwark council is the most corrupt hypocritical organisation around and the whole thing is money making scam!

[Sally Eva]

It will rise to ?900 and then you can be taken to court for the debt. Bailiffs may be ordered by the court to seize your property to pay it. They will have no trouble finding something worth ?900 which you own because they have your car number.

If you feel that it has been wrongly imposed you can ask for further evidence, appeal and then take your case to Northampton County Court where all these cases are heard.

[renarde]

I am appealing it, as i think i ought, using boomshake's letter as a template. i can't afford the escalation though. pension credit doesn't give me the luxury.

thank you everyone for your contributions

[sandyman]

Sorry to hear this - your post highlights exactly why i think my idea below should be adopted.

I think for the first few weeks warnings were sent out to "offenders" but that's no good for someone who uses this route once a year.

So I think everyone should get a warning the first time they "offend" - however long the restrictions have been in place.

I live nearby and walking down Townley Road earlier this week came across an elderly lady holding a PCN in her hand - even though the photo evidence was all there she could not work out what she had done wrong until I walked her further down the road to show her the signs. i think you'd have to be pretty heartless to say if she can't take in road signs like that you shouldn't be driving. I'm much younger and I've had to pause to study them to work them out (or maybe i shouldn't be driving too).

[renarde]

i wonder if this is a way to create exclusive ghettoes???

[oimissus]

I agree, Sandyman. I believe it?s been shown that at least 60% of those fined in Hackney for driving into an LTN weren?t local. Probably similar here. I certainly had no idea about it for ages until I read about it here and I only live in Peckham!

[malumbu]

I've not had any PCNs in the last few years so don't know whether Southwark is the most corrupt hypocritical organisation around and whether the whole thing is money making scam. As for the original post try an old fashioned letter explaining your situation and that you were supporting the community. A hard copy letter sometimes has more impact than doing things on line.

[lameduck]

Annie be careful about not paying

All councils can waste lots of money to take you to court for a diddling

amount. Try the letter about helping the charity, you may find a sympathetic ear.

[Sally Eva]

These fines rise to ?900 if not paid or appealed. Court fees and bailiffs fees will add at least ?500. Bailiffs have to be paid and they will seize possessions and sell them.

They know your car number and can seize your car and sell it to pay the debt. They are not under any obligation to try and get good value for your property. They can seize your property wherever it is, so your car can be seized when parked on your drive or on the road.

[KidKruger]

Simply not paying and expecting the council to just fade away / the charges incurred not to dramatically increase quickly is a folly you?ll traverse once only.

[Chick]

It's money making scam.

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've not had any PCNs in the last few years so

> don't know whether Southwark is the most corrupt

> hypocritical organisation around and whether the

> whole thing is money making scam. As for the

> original post try an old fashioned letter

> explaining your situation and that you were

> supporting the community. A hard copy letter

> sometimes has more impact than doing things on

> line.

[malumbu]

It's a measure to reduce the number of vehicles on the road. It may not be the best way of doing this.

You could say that all motoring enforcement is a scam. Perhaps you could go back to the 1950s where you could almost do what you liked if you could afford a car, in fact you were encouraged to drink and drive when large pubs were built on the arterial trunk roads going out into the outer boroughs and home counties.

If you genuinely have evidence that this is a scam then report it to the Local Government Ombudsman, Serious Fraud Office and the like.

You could also take this up with the PM who introduced and funded the concept

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/emergency-active-travel-fund-local-transport-authority-allocations

[sandyman]

I've only had one PCN since the new measures were introduced but it's probably not a coincidence that it was in Lewisham in an area I rarely go through.

The trouble is a lack of consistency. i went to visit a friend in Walthamstow and there were timed restrictions near his house but they were different to the times in Dulwich so I did have to do a serious doubletake to get my head round them.

sandyman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry to hear this - your post highlights exactly

> why i think my idea below should be adopted.

>

> I think for the first few weeks warnings were sent

> out to "offenders" but that's no good for someone

> who uses this route once a year.

>

> So I think everyone should get a warning the first

> time they "offend" - however long the restrictions

> have been in place.

>

> I live nearby and walking down Townley Road

> earlier this week came across an elderly lady

> holding a PCN in her hand - even though the photo

> evidence was all there she could not work out what

> she had done wrong until I walked her further down

> the road to show her the signs. i think you'd have

> to be pretty heartless to say if she can't take in

> road signs like that you shouldn't be driving. I'm

> much younger and I've had to pause to study them

> to work them out (or maybe i shouldn't be driving

> too).

[renarde]

thanks everyone, i am appealing as my representation was rejected. thinking of sending copy of my evidence and letters to the leader of the council.

I am disabled and do not have the choice of walking, cycling or public transport. and on the lowest income. a fine is equivalent to my living expenses for a fortnight.

I think i have got enough info to go on with.

All best everyone

Annie

[AylwardS]

Anyone who got a ticket be sure you understand the potential consequences of not paying / appealing. I don?t know the latest legal position but I doubt it?s changed too much since I did.

Whether you agree with the restrictions or not or think the aim is money making there is a legal order and tickets are issued under legislation. The charge for a ticket, the formal appeals process and when charges can rise are laid out in legislation. These aren?t tickets you can ignore and they go away like ones on private land.

Challenge the ticket within 14 days and the council will hold it at the discounted rate while they consider your challenge.

If they say no you (if you are the registered keeper not just the driver) can make a formal appeal but pay the standard rate (the charge doubles) if it goes against you. Even if the outcome of the appeal includes a recommendation that the council accept the lower amount it?s just that and unlikely to be acted on. How are your circumstances different to someone else who missed the signs / unknowingly entered the area? If the council lets you pay the lower rate then others will ask to / everyone will appeal (worst case scenario)

Still don?t pay it will increase again. You?ll get a letter telling you.

Still don?t pay and it will increase again and the County Court will issue an order. You?ll get a letter telling you.

Still don?t pay. The order can be passed to bailiffs. They will send letters, the charge will increase and finally they will knock on your door. They can take goods including your car, your car can be clamped on your property.

Not paying is not going to get the restrictions removed but will cause you stress if not worse.

Vent on here. Ask for advice but be aware of the consequences and decide if they are ones you can accept.

[renarde]

thank you, but i had gathered that! i needed constructive info, i live on a tiny income and paying what i think is a badly stout scheme is disproportionately crippling.

this old lady has sucked many eggs...

[Sally Eva]

probably not aimed at you, renarde.

You can check your income here: https://www.entitledto.co.uk/

I think you said before that you were disabled?

You can ask for help here: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/benefits-and-support/other-welfare-benefits

If you have tried to claim disability benefits but been rejected by the DWP, then you can ask for help at Citizens Advice and from Rightfully Yours.

[renarde]

i am in receipt of all i can get, j have been for years and learnt to manage. but #65 is still a big hit, and contestable.

Ax

[renarde]

thank you, this was the most helpful post i got on this

[Tilt]

Here's the official process since nobody has explained it correctly.

1. Informal appeal (they will reject this out of hand). The threatened fine will double.

2. Wait for a NTO (Notice to Owner) to arrive in the post. This should be within 28 days. This will explain you may now appeal formally.

3. Submit your formal appeal once you receive the NTO. The council will again reject it.

4. Once you have the formal rejection letter you may now appeal to London Tribunals which is an independent adjudication service. You submit your appeal and any evidence online and the council will submit theirs. You will then be offered possible dates for your hearing. It is best to do this in-person (or via phonecall) at their centre which is in Holborn.

Some notes: Whoever said they are "simply not paying" is an idiot. This is a legal process. They absolutely will send bailiffs around if it gets to that stage. No, ifs or buts. That *will* happen.

The council also don't care one iota what your circumstances are. You could be delivering life-saving organs to someone at death's door. They do not care. It is a pen-pusher on minimum wage who quickly reviews the hundreds of thousands of appeals they get. Unless they have made a mistake then they will not accept your appeal regardless of circumstances. You may have more luck at London Tribunals but again, they follow the law to the letter. There is no such thing as extenuating circumstances.

Your best bet is to hope they make a mistake at some point during the process which is entirely possible. I have had my appeal accepted at the tribunal on multiple occasions because the council either submitted something too late or made a mistake in some of the paperwork. As soon as they make one single mistake they lose.

But remember: You MUST follow the process even though the possible fine will increase to financially crippling levels.

[peckhamside]

I sympathise, I think the signs are not obvious at that roundabout, went through myself but luckily it was marginally before the start time. I wrote to my councilor to complain about poor signage and lack of widespread pre-publicity. That having been said it is probably better to pay and move on!!

[slarti b]

peckhamside Wrote:

> I wrote to my councilor to complain about poor signage and lack of widespread pre-publicity.

I don't think that will help. Our local councillors were the instigators of this scheme, including the cameras and the resulting penalties. They fully support it despite the poor signage and the impact on perople such as carers and less mobile residents.

Sadly, they are more interested in representing some very vocal minority pressure groups rather than their own constituents. Something to remember in the council elections in May 2022!!

[RoundTable]

Nothing.

Nothing is going to change with the signange as far as the council is concerned, unless:

1. Somebody can prove without doubt, in court, that the signage does not comply with statutory requirements.

2. In the event of being able to prove through the courts that the council's signage does not meet statutory requirements, a name-and-shame campaign outing the council as breaking the law when it comes to signage. You can expect this campaign to have to go nationwide before anything gets done by the council to fix this.

You may ask yourself - how can this person 'know' this? Well, I've lived in London for more than 25 years and I remember what happened when road layout changes were introduced in the Victoria area. It was a mess of poor signage that generated millions in a high-profile area and was in the national news for months before adequate signage was put in place. Note, the restrictions still remained in place, it was the signage that changed.

Therefore, what needs to happen, is: for somebody who has had a fine:

1. Study the statutory requirements for road signs

2. Go to the area and study if the current signage conforms.

3. If the answer is 'yes, they conform', then go to the pub have a few pints and moan about the b********** council.

4. If the answer is 'no, they do not conform', then take photographic evidence, and appeal, appeal, appeal. Call Southwark News and any mates you have who work in the national press.

* Disclaimer - I do not work in the council, I'm just surprised that anybody in this day and age still thinks that a letter on fancy paper is going to get them off paying a fine.