Fox cull petition

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100

[susiq]

firstly, not yelling, you had your say, I had mine, and I do not think that my own personal view is that of any others, regular or not,there was no venom towards a human mother as you put it, foxes, badgers etc, will go back to their home if possible, so try digging down where the den is, place mesh wire along the opening and cover again with soil, failing that have you called organisation Fox Watch, they can also advise a humane solution.

[LadyDeliah]

Or you could borrow someone's dog. Most dogs will evict foxes from a garden.

[Sol]

When I read the newspaper last week it said that the problem was that people feed the foxes; I just couldn't not believe that in such an advance city there are so many ignorant people that feed foxes and pigeons. I thought that was not the problem, but according two what I have read in the forum, this seems to be the problem or at least great part of it. A big campaign needs to be done to educate people on this matter. I feel really sorry for people who have foxes living in their gardens, what's the point of having a garden if you can not enjoy it or let the children play there because of the foxes.

[aquarius moon]

Sol Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When I read the newspaper last week it said that

> the problem was that people feed the foxes; I just

> couldn't not believe that in such an advance city

> there are so many ignorant people that feed foxes

> and pigeons. I thought that was not the problem,

> but according two what I have read in the forum,

> this seems to be the problem or at least great

> part of it. A big campaign needs to be done to

> educate people on this matter. I feel really sorry

> for people who have foxes living in their gardens,

> what's the point of having a garden if you can not

> enjoy it or let the children play there because of

> the foxes.

I don't know if foxes attack children/babies because I've never seen it.

Don't know if they attack cats because I've never seen that either.

What seems obvious to me is that they are hungry, food is becoming more scarce, so if they are starving, maybe they will attack anything in order to survive.

Who can blame them?

If they are well fed & not hungry, they would have no need to kill anything.

And they are living creatures who need to eat.

So people that feed them are not ignorant, just more compassionate than you.

[WorkingMummy]

Foxes do go for children; I've seen it with my own eyes. They are wild carnivores. And two different mothers in this thread alone have told you of foxes either in their houses, crapping in the kitchen (Mollydoodle) or constantly try to get in (me).

Foxes do attack even when well fed. "Our" foxes ate a rich diet of domesticated cat food, thanks to next door. They were no less eager to bite at our children and get into the house. Indeed, I'm sure it is BECAUSE they were artificially fed by the human next door that 1) they denned on our back door step (to top it all, next door's garden is paved so they couldn't live there) 2) they had no need to leave our garden to hunt or scavenge, so their territory shrank to the size of a postage stamp and they had nothing better to do than hang around in our gardn and try to get into our house 3) they became emboldened around humans. My husband is a large man. They would not run away even from him unless he stomped about and waved a large broom handle at them.

If you feed foxes to prevent them from starving, you are defying nature, not helping it. Nature has its own way of controlling populations. The urban fox has evolved to live very successfully and discretely alongside us and is in no danger of dying out (I'm glad to say). Leaving the population to find its own balance on available resources is the kindest and most respectful thing to do.

Feeding foxes is not compassionate; it is cruel. I have witnessed first hand how it turns magestic, clever, welcome visitors passing through a garden into a semi-domesticated but unpredictable, permanent nuisance. Like many interferences in nature, artificially feeding foxes only creates a need for greater, more drastic intervention, like selective culling, down the line.

[maxxi]

"And they are living creatures who need to eat. So people that feed them are not ignorant, just more compassionate than you."

ditto rats, mice, cockroaches, bedbugs, flies etc. I presume you and your home are just as welcoming in these areas?

That truly is compassionate.

[PaulK]

Hahahahaha you forgot pubic lice

[aquarius moon]

Yes, they are all welcome.

If they outstay their welcome, or multiply too much, or become a nuisance, I'll remove them.

But, I'll never kill them.

[WorkingMummy]

You cannot remove a den of foxes, addicted to domesticated cat food, without killing them.

We tried. For weeks.

(Like to see you get rid of bed bugs by non fatal means too. And what do you do with the rats? Dump em next door to move in there instead?)

With or without your contribution of extra food, the fox population of London will reach a maximum sustainable level each year and those in excess will die naturally anyway. You feed them, you increase the population size, but you do not change the fact that a percentage will die off. In fact, you may even increase the actual numbers that starve if you create a situation where an artificially high number of cubs survive so that the population explodes over a couple of years. It's basic population statistics. (Wild animals do not assess the size of their resources and then practice family planning.)

[aquarius moon]

I don't really think that my contribution of a few out-of-date sausage rolls a month is going to have much of an effect.

All I'm saying is that if I had loads of left-over food (which I don't)

Could afford to buy food for them (which I can't)

Then, I would.

[civilservant]

I'm afraid that I have to agree with Working Mummy.

Everything I have read about the fox population in London suggests that a lack of food is not the problem - the problem is working out how to co-exist with humans.

Feeding them unfortunately helps them develop not just a culture of dependence but also to lose their fear of humans - which works against their interests in the long term, since the balance of power when they come up against humans is firmly weighted against them

[LadyDeliah]

They do not attack because they are hungry. They have killed 5 of my chickens without eating any part of them. They left their mangled carcasses around my garden and several neighbours gardens.

Plus they are very unlikely to be hungry with the amount of food waste people leave strewn around the place.

I agree with the comments above. People feeding them has created a confidence around humans that has now made them dangerous to have in the city so you are directly responsible in part for what will have to be done to control them.

You have done no-one any favours by artificially producing conditions the foxes would not find in nature and have actually caused harm. Your need to be thought of as a caring person or to try to bond with them, or whatever your motive is for encouraging contact between humans and these wild animals, is very selfish and will ultimately contribute to any cull that is needed.

[WorkingMummy]

I hope this isn't too misty-eyed of me, but in support of civil servant (and other's) love of the fox, I remember when I was about 8, walking home in the dark with my dad, in south Croydon, and he stopped and told me to be quiet - "If you are very lucky, you'll see a fox - there." And after a few seconds, I saw it, crossing the street ahead of us. It saw us, stopped momentarily to size us up, then trotted on. It was utterly beautiful. I felt like Richard Attenborough. I had seen a rare glimpse of non-human, wild life, in my own street. And I had learnt in just a few seconds from my father what my attitude should be: respect, wonderment, and distance.

I think that was the only time I actually saw a fox before leaving home. But I knew they were there after that, and would hear them, and sometimes recognise that slightly unpleasant smell marking their territories. I don't remember any anti-fox sentiment amongst adults in my childhood community. Complaints about other people's cats and dogs, yes. But not foxes. And far from being unable to leave her back door open for fear of foxy intrusion, my mother used to allow my baby sister to sleep outside in garden, in the pram, without any thought that she would be eaten. Foxes simply did not show their faces in the garden during th day.

Having foxes reproducing in our garden and running around our children was not, I found, such a positiv way of introducing the kids to "wild" life or its rightful place beside us. There was no joy and wonderment: only fear and confusion.

I do feel very sorry for the foxes that we had to kill. They deserved better than to be reduced, as civil servant says, to dependent visitor attractions in the gardens of well meaning but misguided human "animal lovers".

[WorkingMummy]

PS: In artificially increasing the fox population by feeding them, you are also acting against the interests of some of the animals below them in the food chain, which might include rats (although not in a way that would threaten the rat's existence, as surely rats have the ability to live out of the fox's way, in buildings and sewers) but also other small mammals such as hedgehogs. I cannot believe that the increase in the fox population and the decrease in the hedgehog population are entirely unrelated.

Wait, I think there may be another thread about the disappearing urban hedgehog.

[civilservant]

the main hedgehog predator is the badger, but I agree foxes may also pose a (lesser) threat. A contact at the BHPS told me that the main threat to hedgehogs is habitat fragmentation, with roads and garden fences making it difficult for the poor little dim creatures to get about safely.

It's a testament to the versatility of the fox (and the rat) that they have managed to adapt and survive the same threats.

Aquarius Moon, I know that you are a very kind person and I don't want you to feel that I'm having a go at you, but I think that - like teaching children to manage/avoid the dangers they will encounter in life - we need to ensure that the wild things around us don't run more risks than they absolutely must, one of which is learning to trust humans.

[WorkingMummy]

I have emailed Valarie Shawcross, our London Assembly representative, about whether the Mayor is serious about a cull and to suggest, wouldn't public education to discourage feeding be better instead. She replied:

"My perception is, like yours, that the problem is more to do with human behaviour - feeding foxes and encouraging them to come near homes is the problem, not their existence in London per se. So public education would be the answer.

Despite his pronouncements I don't believe the Mayor intends to act on his views but I will table a Mayoral Question and find out - also urging him to look first to educating the public. Like lots of people I enjoy 'Spring watch' on TV and that kind of programme may have contributed to a trend of people wanting to get closer to wildlife. Which as you say creates risks."

[LondonLogCo]

Given the vogue for feral/vermin pets, wouldn't a Fox be more outr? Sue?

I'm sure I've seen one on a lead in Shireditch.

[susiq]

what are you all on, these are foxes,looking for food, not terrorists, get a grip, make a loud noise, dont feed them if you dont want to, I am sure I would rather shoo away a fox, pigeon, badger bloody rat etc., than a perv or pedo, if you cant keep your family safe here dont move to peckham you precious things.

[Huguenot]

I think they're just pointing out susiq, that despite your goodwill, feeding foxes does more harm than good to the foxes.

You're hurting the foxes.

[susiq]

well then, I also hurt a lot of people/homeless/gormless/kids/rats/prats/twats/pests/tits and squirrels and so

where should you draw the line. use sense, we start discriminating about one form of life how long till we start deciding about what sort of life should be allowed to live (especially in trendy dulwich) beggers, coke heads (non in trendy dulwich) people who drive guzzling 4x4s, pissartists, people who submit to dulwich forum, the breast feeding club, the ukelale club, stop, dulwich alone would be empty. but thank you Huguenot, you seem - ok.

[LadyDeliah]

Susiq, you appear to be missing the point.

1. In conflicts between humans and animals, animals usually lose,

2. foxes are wild carnivores who have grown in number due to an abundance of waste food to scavenge,

3. foxes have lost their fear of humans in cities because of regular contact, including with people who feed them,

4. foxes lack of fear is now causing them to come into conflict with the human residents of the cities,

5. see point 1.

If you want to do the foxes a favour, stop feeding them because in the long run you are adding to the likelihood of them being culled.

By removing their natural (and healthy) fear of humans, you are adding to the likelihood they will be harmed due to the increased conflict which results.

Is that clearer?

Homeless people and squirrels etc are clearly not the same as foxes. Rats could find themselves in the same position, however, if there was a sudden craze for feeding and taming them as there has been with foxes.

[susiq]

you have good points and I appreciate your view, thankyou.

[thebond]

Bring fox hunting into London, that would be fun.

The noise that comes from my neighbours garden, where they must have a fox den, with the bloody noise they make along with the magpies during mating season, I hear from more blooming wildlife than when I lived in the Cotswolds

[susiq]

try living near Panther Cars, give me the wildlife - not people wildlife