Stop mega-nursery creating further traffic misery on East Dulwich Grove

[Jules-and-Boo]

I think it's a pity East Dulwich is selling out to chains to the cost of pushing out smaller businesses.

It's also really really shortsighted to say that people won't drive. When the weather is colder, people will. People are generally lazy / short of time or a combination.

[northernmonkey]

The streets surrounding the nursery are all controlled parking with the exception of Melbourne grove south. Walking along there every day there really doesn?t look to be any parking there, so where will all these people be parking? And where are they driving back to. The whole advantage of the site really is it?s proximity to the station. If there was no CPZ I would think the concerns re driving would be valid as parents likely to drive, drop off and leave cars until pick up, but with the CPZ this seems unlikely.

[Jules-and-Boo]

The same CPZ that people want reversed?

Parking and ?dropping off (leaving engine running)? are very different things.

[bels123]

Parking and leaving the engine running doesn't apply to people dropping off babies and toddlers at nursery though. In my experience it takes longer than a few minutes.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> The same CPZ that people want reversed?

"People" want lots of things. If the neighbourhood is going to fall apart because of a nursery if it doesn't have a CPZ...then it really needs a CPZ.

[first mate]

We have yet to see if Tell Grove and Melbourne Grove South (just behind the barrier)become drop off points for Charter in September. The layout of the roads at that point allows cars to turn quite easily. I do agree that dropping off babies and toddlers would take more time.

[heartblock]

New entrance for Charter on East Dulwich Grove on the corner where the gym and food hall are and another will be open on the main entrance on ED Grove. It will be very busy on the Grove during the school and nursery run.

Thankfully most Charter kids get a bus, train or cycle, unlike many JAGs and Alleyn?s kids...

I think the mega-nursery will undoubtably bring more traffic to ED Grove, I think as the road is now full of idling traffic and the buses are delayed in school term, after the ?healthy streets? initiative, parents will drive, make U turns to avoid traffic further up the road and it will all add to the traffic/pollution and general chaos of the school run mornings.

[northernmonkey]

Why have we ?yet to see??

The school has been in session most of last year and the road layout / cpz in place.

Going back to the nursery, you can?t just leave the engine running and drop off babies and toddlers, you have to park, take them in, hand them over etc so back again to where are all these cars (that are enough of a problem to oppose planning) going to park? There is obviously the time between 7:30-8 where they could park in the cpz, but otherwise would have to pay to drop off each day, which is generally enough of a deterrent especially as they couldn?t then leave the car all day anyway as the Max pay by phone is shorter than the controlled hours (I think)

first mate Wrote:

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> We have yet to see if Tell Grove and Melbourne

> Grove South (just behind the barrier)become drop

> off points for Charter in September. The layout of

> the roads at that point allows cars to turn quite

> easily. I do agree that dropping off babies and

> toddlers would take more time.

[mr smith]

Which CPZ has free parking between 7.30 and 8? I?m pretty sure Tell Grove doesn?t.

[northernmonkey]

All of them. The charging doesnt start until 8am

[heartblock]

Actually as the traffic is at a standstill during the school run down ED Grove ...many parents let their kids get out in the middle of the road, sometimes in front of bikes...I think that is why many cyclists use the pavement as children jumping out of cars and cars trying to do U-turns is very dangerous.

[northernmonkey]

This is a nursery thread. No one at all lets their preschooler out in the middle of roads.

It did used to be a very common occurrence on Calton in the past, but in terms of whether it will be an issue for the nursery, I think we can unequivocally say it won't be!

[Angelina]

what's your personal interest in the nursery, northernmonkey?

Traffic is already at a standstill, pollution is already too high.

There is no way that the nursery will be car free and will not contribute to increased traffic and pollution

[northernmonkey]

No personal interest whatsoever - just not accepting that parents will stop in the road and push nursery age children out to go to nursery...,

Also questioning where all these parents will be parking given CPZ around that area.

Were you all up in arms when the Tessa Jowell Health Centre was granted planning permission for so much on site parking. Blue badge and ambulance and then very limited other parking would have seemed more sensible, but as it is its a major contributor to traffic along that stretch.

[Metallic]

northernmonkey Wrote:

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> No personal interest whatsoever - just not

> accepting that parents will stop in the road and

> push nursery age children out to go to

> nursery...,

>

>

> Also questioning where all these parents will be

> parking given CPZ around that area.

>

> Were you all up in arms when the Tessa Jowell

> Health Centre was granted planning permission for

> so much on site parking. Blue badge and ambulance

> and then very limited other parking would have

> seemed more sensible, but as it is its a major

> contributor to traffic along that stretch.

Don't you live on one of the roads that will be clogged with dropping off parents?

[Angelina]

Are you challenging that people would need to drive to the doctor? That's not comparing similar things.

If you want a comparison, it would be the Charter East school, which was supposed to not contribute as pupils were expected to walk or take the bus. IN reality, that's not the case and traffic has increased. We can realistically expect the same with a large nursery.

The question is - do we want more traffic?

[DuncanW]

That's a fairly reductive question though... no-one wants more traffic.

We all want access to healthcare and education provision.

[Jules-and-Boo]

that's the whole point - we don't want more traffic and we don't need additional nursery places - which is clear from the unfilled positions in the multiple nurseries in the area. To fill it would mean people travelling in, which would increase traffic, which we don't want.

Basically, we don't need the nursery and we don't want the consequences of that increase in traffic.

Quite basic.

[northernmonkey]

The thing is - the nursery provider think that there will be sufficient demand or they wouldn't be paying millions for the site and development.

Right now the position is difficult, flexible working arrangements have changed the hours people want, but if / when more people return to offices then there may be again increased demand. It is only in the recent year or so there have been available nursery places - in the past wait lists for popular nurseries have been years not months.

The offering from the proposed nursery looks fantastic - its going to be more expensive than the one next door I assume (as the fees for the ED one aren't visible on the website) and that may be a differentiator, but if the other nurseries are a guide it looks like it will have brilliant facilities. Their other sites also do events for the nursery and wider community outside core nursery hours.

In terms of alternative uses, I know people think it would be good as a community centre, but thats not on offer. Its been sold as a commercial concern and if not a nursery then what would be acceptable? My prediction is that if this didn't go through conversion to more flats would be likely.

[Jules-and-Boo]

it's not service driven, it's profit driven.

if you applied your argument to cafes, you would say that Gail's are opening a cafe in the Brickhouse site because there are not enough cakes in ED.

Really, the MO is to move to an area where people like cake and try and get a slice of the action.

[northernmonkey]

Exactly - that was the first sentence - its a business, they wouldn't be offering it if they didn't think it would make money.

Other nurseries will either be a) better or b) cheaper. If they are neither they will lose business. They are also commercial ventures.

But going back to the position in ED right up until the pandemic hit, there was a dearth of nursery spaces especially for under 2s and waiting lists at popular nurseries were years long.

[Jules-and-Boo]

we won't be going back to the pre-pandemic work pattern so that's largely a mute point.

The point is the impact on the local area of increased traffic and pollution, which is already unacceptable.

[redpost]

Sorry, I don't understand. If the nursery places are unneeded then where does the extra traffic come from?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> we don't need additional nursery

> places - which is clear from the unfilled

> positions in the multiple nurseries in the area.

Is that true? What's the source for this? ED is nappy valley and they were like hen's teeth a couple of years ago. I don't see significantly fewer kids around as a result of COVID (although that's just anecdotal observation obviously).

> we won't be going back to the pre-pandemic work pattern so that's largely a mute point.

Hah! A selection of white collar knowledge workers of bourgeois East Dulwich might be working from home 2-3 days a week, but for most people it's straight back to the old ways. The tube is rammed, trains are busy, Central London is looking busier

[rachp]

A state school is different to a private nursery that has been told that it cannot allow parents to drive. A school is compelled to provide an education to its pupils so when parents say they have no other way of getting their kids to school (which they do), the school is in a pretty difficult position. If a nursery has been explicit upfront that parents cannot drive (which this one will have to do), they are in a much stronger position to enforce this condition, especially given the more commercial nature of the relationship. Furthermore, as people have already said, dropping kids off at nursery is pretty unrealistic if you are relying on parking illegally, you can?t quickly drop them off from the middle of the road. I?m not saying their will be zero traffic created, no one can say this. But I do think it will be a very small amount if the existing EDG. nursery is anything to go by- the vast majority of parents walk or cycle (and they have never said you can?t drive, it?s just parking is pretty much impossible and most people live nearby).