Other People's Children

[Maximay]

Very good point Gerry. I think sometimes grandparents don't often help though, especially in times of discipline or boundary setting as they can often undermine their own adult children in front of the grandchildren by contradicting them or the rules set by them or used by them as parents in an attempt to spoil them, I have seen this on many an occasion. I believe that the grandparents should back the parent, and then the child will have no delusions or confusion as to where they stand and what is expected of them.

Its a lot harder though when the other situation arises, I have both my grandchildren living with me now and they had hardly any boundaries where either parent was concerned, trying to discipline them now and set reasonable rules and boundaries for them now has been an uphill struggle, even basic things like not helping yourself to treats from the cupboard without asking permission first, (usually multiple bags of crisps at a time) the only thing is, it does make me feel like an utter ogre at times, and I do find myself sometimes giving in just to keep the peace and not to appear too mean, I often find myself overcompensating for their parents not being around, then getting cross with myself. Parenting is difficult enough when you are young and at the best of times, its so much harder when all the rules have changed and you are ancient!

[gerry]

HI Maxi

It sounds like you are a very caring grandparent...I think you have your work cut out for you. But I agree with you, if your instinct tells you that the children need boundaries and they are living under your roof, by all means you have an obligation and a right to teach them boundaries. I would not hesitate in your situation....without going into details, I am hoping they are still young enough to learn and accept them. Sometimes, other people's children listen more to another adult than they would to their own parents.

[Maximay]

I have to say though I did pick up quite a few tips off the Nanny programme , (the one with the young woman with the dark hair and glasses who looks more like a secretary), with regards to behaviour and bedtime routines and I have been trying to really reward and give praise for good behaviour and have been trying really hard to ignore and not overly react to naughty behaviour, we have a star chart, it has been up for a week and it has yet to have more than two stars on it but we are getting there.

[pablogrande]

My girlfriend and I decided to go the star chart route now, she changed our son's nappy 5 times in a row so i've given her three stars (2 more and I won't make her sweep the chimney this week)

[gerry]

Thank you for all of your comments. Its been very helpful to have the input. Now, one more question. What are the rules when you go away on hoiday with other families? Any nightmare stories where families have fallen out as a result?

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I think it's all about communication. If you can say unpleasant but necessary things to adults or kids in a way that doesn't seem like you are just having a go that's a start.

Obviously some people are more sensitive to issues and become more defensive than others so you need to be able to stand your ground without getting aggressive and find a way to neutralise their hostility to what you are trying to say. It helps if neither of you are drunk or pulling them up in front of an audience, but backing down and appeasing an irrate parent/child is not the answer.

I try to talk about things when they are small-ish to try to prevent them becoming bigger and more heated.

[Keef]

gerry Wrote:

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> Moos, I think that teachers do have a very difficult job, and in some schools inexperienced teachers are suffering because they haven't got the parenting skills to help them through the tough situations. Parents make their job more

difficult by not backing them up, confusing the child.

I'm really not sure about this. You're completely right that teachers have a bloody difficult job, and often parents don't help them very much. However, a teacher should not need parenting skills! Being a good school teacher and being a good parent are worlds apart in my opinion.

[Nero]

I've done it before and will do it again. One time, in Strada in Clapham, a group of braying 30something parents (yes, they did bray) allowed their poppets to run riot. Eyes rolled, tongues clucked, so I asked the errant kiddies to please be quiet and go and sit still so that everyone coudl have a pleasant time. I couldn't not have done it without exploding. The parents said nothing to me but did repeat my request to their kids. Have a go. Don't suffer in silence. Nero

[gerry]

Keef

I agree that teachers should not need parenting skills, I did say 'inexperienced teachers', they would benefit from having parenting skills to draw from in their behaviour management skills. But if they don't, that does not make them less capable as teachers. It may just bemore difficult in the early days to cope with unruly students. Teacher training does not always equip new teachers with everything they need in the classroom (as said on the news this morning).

[snorky]

The middle classes are scared shitless of touching/speaking someone elses kids - scared of being tagged a "peedo" or reported to the filth or whatever - its a problem

I have been on LL when a kid of about 2/3 was running down the road full pelt with no one around - everyone looked but no one got involved - it was only when I saw he was coming to a road that I took action the stop the blighter and find out what was going on - better to be classed a deviant predator sex case than see a kid knocked down - within seconds of me stopping him and talking to him, people who has been passersby begain to get involved - all middle class Women btw, which made me feel a bit better about getting involved in the first place. Turns out he had legged it from Somerfields and his mother was in a bad way thinking he had been dragged off etc - so we managed to get it sorted - if there had not been women around to see what I was doing, it could have been misinterpreted - maybe ?

Conversely, one day at myatts fields, a boy of maybe 2 was lurching around the swings, seemingly trying to get onto them,, but not having much success- then lurching to the roundabout- which was populated by lively older kids - didnt seem to have anyone looking after him. I steered him away from the spinning roundabout by blocking his route and he wandered back over towards the swings area and began to grab them etc .this went on for about 5 minutes with me watching to make sure he didnt come to harm , until a scowly faced harridan of a parent came across and gave me a hot earful for not helping her child onto the swings , telling me he was only 18 months old and couldnt do it himslef - i think she was more pissed off that her long meandering tragic mindless mobile conversation was interrupted TBH. Im sure if I had helped him into the swings I would have been given a similar hot earful and probabalty lynched as a sex fiend

where does looking our for someones safety turn into inappropriate behavior?

You cant win in many cases

[gerry]

Snorky

You should have been thanked in both situations, but unfortunately parents feel very threatened when someone else does their job!!!...and in some cases does it better. You are right, in many cases you can't win, but at least you know you did the right thing...for the parent and the child.

If I see a child alone in the park, I always ask where is his/her mother/parent/guardian. Usually they haven't noticed they have wondered off.....I think we all have to be responsible when it comes to safety for the children. So please keep doing exactly what you feel is right.

[Moos]

Re: teachers, I understand what Gerry means by saying they need parenting skills, but what they really need are supportive parents of the kids in their classes. The two roles should be absolutely separate and complementary. Schools are increasingly taking on a 'parental' role with behavioural classes, citizenship and so on - in my view a job for the parents and not for schools, and totally pointless unless the values taught are initiated, instilled and lived by example at home.

Re: grandparents, I guess I should get Ma Moos onto this! but I think it's a good rule of thumb that local grandparents who get to be around a lot of the time and take on a more active and constant role in the raising of the grandchildren and the formation of behavioural norms should stick by the parents' rules and support them, and it applies even if they think the way the children are being raised is newfangled and weird. If they don't, the kids will be totally confused and new parents' confidence could be horribly undermined. (Unless the children are being endangered, of course) However, grandparents who don't get to see their see their grandchildren very often ought to be cut a bit more slack and allowed to break the rules more: you can't spoil kids in a weekend. Do g'parents on the Forum agree, or am I talking nonsense?

[Maximay]

Moos I definitely have to say I agree with you where the behaviour of different types of grandparents are concerned, it does depend on how much involvement they have in the upbringing of their grandchildren.

Snorky you are to be commended, I would do exactly the same, and have done so, i.e. picking up a little 'un in the park who had just fallen over and grazed his knee, (mother on mobile chatting and didn't see it as child (about 2yrs) was walking behind her!!),although sometimes being that much older, you do get some very weird reactions and some not very nice ones from parents with barely a thank you as you are often deemed dodgy yourself to say the least.

[tinagwee]

when I was growing up there was defintely a community parenting thing going on. It meant my mum knew verything I got up to in places I knew she couldnt have seen me. As a consequence I thought she was more all seeing and powerful than god and I was less likely to re-offend.

In those days people didnt get all uppity and defensive when someone came and told them on the quiet what their kids got up to, instead they thanked them for telling them as it meant they could deal with it. Now adays parents seem to think that their kids wouldnt possibly do anything wrong so tell the person to mind their own business or be very rude. Saying, "I am going to go and tell your mum if you dont stop that" no longer holds any threat to kids as they know their mum will bawl you out for daring to imply the kid is anything less than an angel.

Kids can and are darlings but they can be right little sh%ts who can manipulate their parents very skillfully and play the perfect angel, however there is no perfect child, we need to remember that so we can help the kids realise when they are out of order, so that they dont turn into the most horrible adults imaginable.

Does anyone read that column in the guardian in the family section about living with teenagers? Those kids are gonna be horrible adults. Wouldnt want to be their employer in the future. That mum is a classic example of a parent trying to be her kids mate rather than a parent. I cant read it without feeling the urge to strangle her.

[wee quinnie]

tinagwee Wrote:

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>

> Does anyone read that column in the guardian in

> the family section about living with teenagers?

> Those kids are gonna be horrible adults. Wouldnt

> want to be their employer in the future. That mum

> is a classic example of a parent trying to be her

> kids mate rather than a parent. I cant read it

> without feeling the urge to strangle her.

OMG YES! That is the first bit I read every week - it's completely car crash!

[dulwichmum]

I blame the nannies. If you ask me they are not trained properly. Honestly, it is just so very difficult to get good help.

[tinagwee]

dulwichmum Wrote:

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> I blame the nannies. If you ask me they are not

> trained properly. Honestly, it is just so very

> difficult to get good help.

you may have hit on something dm. hehehe

[SteveT]

My ex wife thought it would be a good idea to go away with a couple who had kids same age as ours.

I refused as the parents were quite big drinkers and often seemed to score off each other with barbed comments.

When I went on holiday I wanted it to be time for my own children no one elses.

When my ex became more insistant I suggested she went, then she calmed down and gave up on the idea.

This story is all very well provided you understand we have been divorced for 8 years.

[2degreesfrommadness]

As a mature trainee teacher doing my second placement I was told on my arrival that I was being totally unrealistic expecting " pleases and Thank you's" as kids just dont do 'em these days. My reply was that these were my standards and I wasnt lowering them, I get please's and Thank you's even if I have to remind kids for them , often accompanyied by " sorry Miss".

Just a small step in the war I know, still have to deal with all the other incidents of rudeness and lack of respect. Its all very well parents complaining that teachers arent teaching their kids, if they taught them to respect adults and not to answer back or talk when they're talking in the first place! This has been my experience in both an independent ( local ) girls school and a middle-class boys comprehensive!

On a personal level if visiting children misbehave at my house they get asked to stop and told that their behaviour is unacceptable.

Rant over!

[KalamityKel]

Whenever the kids come round to mine, they are all told of certain rules of the house - no running, leave the cats alone, no throwing, no one out into the garden etc and they generally are very good with this (especially little Nathan who takes great delight in telling his older siblings what they can and can not do). On the occassion when the tantrums, sulking and nortyness arise a firm voice and look followed by "no that's not what we do" or "nooooooo!" (whilst grabbing hold of the little blighter in mid throw/run/hit) and a gentle explaination of the wrong doing usually works altho of course does not always work. In such situations the norty step, threats to b taken home and "if you're going to be norty we won't play with the water/cars/buy you a pressie etc" ensue.

Luckily my lot are all under the age of 8 so rules are easier to instill... I'm beginning to dread the thought of their visits as they get older tho :-S

[Asset]

why can't they go in the garden Kel? Surely that is the best place for the little blighters to be.

[KalamityKel]

Our garden isn't child friendly... I think we'd prefer for them to have their first set of teeth fall out naturally ;)

[gerry]

You have all given me so many useful ideas for my article. Is there anyone who would object if I quoted some of what you have said here? I would only refer to you as a "friend" so your words would remain strictly anonymous. PM me if you have any objections.