A few drunk loutish England fans let the side down on Lordship Lane

[fishbiscuits]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> Now imagine if Denmark had won

Best solution would have been England not qualifying at all.

[JohnL]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

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> Sephiroth Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Now imagine if Denmark had won

>

> Best solution would have been England not

> qualifying at all.

The team and the manager are decent people but this Euro20 hasn't been that well organised - I prefer it in one country.

[Otto2]

The man who was punched has written about it...

https://www.economist.com/diary/2021/07/09/a-night-to-forget-the-english-fans-that-embarrass-their-country

I think there may be a paywall - but - a good read. Eloquent. And, upsetting.

[alice]

Maybe avoid confrontation would be good advice

[hpsaucey]

alice Wrote:

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> Maybe avoid confrontation would be good advice

???

HP

[fishbiscuits]

alice Wrote:

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> Maybe avoid confrontation would be good advice

No... if fans boarded the bus specifically to confront the man's family, he did the right thing by trying to stand in their way. 10 times out of 10. No victim shaming please.

[JohnL]

Not sure if the "avoid confrontation" comment is a bit of sarcasm ?

(on victim blaming)

[siousxiesue]

alice Wrote:

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> Maybe avoid confrontation would be good advice

Yeah, travelling home on a bus, with his family. Very confrontational! Victim blaming

[alice]

If a person gets out of their seat to go to front of bus to tell exuberant fans to ?calm down? I think that?s confrontational. But I do get it that others see the situation differently.

[hpsaucey]

alice Wrote:

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> If a person gets out of their seat to go to front

> of bus to tell exuberant fans to ?calm down? I

> think that?s confrontational. But I do get it that

> others see the situation differently.

I can't see that any of the reports linked to on this thread say onw of them told fans to 'calm down'. From the reports this family have done absolutely nothing. Maybe you should share whrre that quote came from?

HP

[alice]

From initial post on Nextdoor not verbatim

[malumbu]

edcam Wrote:

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> Despicable but unsurprising, given the atmosphere

> the tories have created over the last few years.

Wow, what a narrow perspective. This lot have embraced populism, and soft nationalism, but we would have seen similar under previous governments. When Germany knocked England out in 96 a few continentals were picked on, whether they were German or not.

It's a societal issue, and any government of the day should be discouraging this. Brexit hasn't helped (see my thread on the Lounge about Two World Wars and one Word Cup. They could start by comparing the two arms in the air, used both when fans sing the National Anthem, or facing opposing fans looking for confrontation, with the Nazi salute.

There are differences between throwing your arms when scoring eg Geof Hurst in 66 and seen many times since, and chants involving clapping (far the greatest team the world has ever seen/Iceland fans clapping roaring routine). The link shows it better

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683623/violent-french-warn-england-fans-violence-nice

[KidKruger]

The father would have been overly lax imo just to sit there on the bus while screaming ?patriots? board the bus and come right up to him and his actual family.

Don?t blame the pissed-up hooligans, suggest the family man fanned the flames instead 🤣

alice Wrote:

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> If a person gets out of their seat to go to front

> of bus to tell exuberant fans to ?calm down? I

> think that?s confrontational. But I do get it that

> others see the situation differently.

[IlonaM]

THe fans were not 'exuberant' they were drunk, threatening and behaving in such a way as to cause real fear to a young boy.

[fishbiscuits]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> The father would have been overly lax imo just to

> sit there on the bus while screaming ?patriots?

> board the bus and come right up to him and his

> actual family.

This. 100%.

[IlonaM]

SAdly, our local family was not alone in their vile experience. This, from the Observer: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/10/he-is-nine-years-old-more-danes-tell-of-being-abused-by-england-fans

[Monkey]

Looks like security was very poor. Paints a very poor picture of our country.

[JohnL]

Economist article which you probably can't see but it's first person.

https://www.economist.com/diary/2021/07/09/a-night-to-forget-the-english-fans-that-embarrass-their-country

[DuncanW]

It sounds like this family had an unpleasant experience, and I have every symptahy for them on that score.

I wonder though how many of the people who seem so outraged over this actually rather petty incident have ever been to a football match as a travelling away fan. I suspect not many, and it's fairly clear that the family in question only got tickets as football fans based in Denmark couldn't travel.

Intimidation and violence at an around football matches is horrible, but it's nothing new and thankfully it's far less common nowadays than it used to be. This Euros is notable not for the small number of unwelcome minor incidents, but for their sparsity and for the lack of any major trouble. I get that is partly due to restrictions in place due to Covid but I would much rather the general high standards of behaviour should be celebrated, rather than dwelling on a small number of minor incidents.

The last Euros was held in France and was mired with horrific violence across the country. Two England fans were left in a coma after masked Russia fans charged England supporters armed with iron bars. Some England fans had clashed with French police the night before after causing trouble in the town centre, but the fans who were attacked the next day hadn't been causing trouble. There were other serious outbreaks of violence across the country involving supporters of several different teams, including French fans ambushing Turkish fans in Paris. Turkey weren't even playing France.

There's often a fine line between victim-blaming and good advice when it comes to personal safety. I think the difference is that good advice is given before the event. So for anyone who might be in Germany for Euro 2024 I would share the advice that I always follow when I have travelled to away games over the years, and in recent years with my own young children: Don't wear colours, or if you do, it's best to have a zip-up top that can cover it up when needed; definitely don't travel on the local public transport system with England face-paint all over your face. If you find yourself in a potentially hostile situation, keep your head down, remain non-expresive - smiling doesn't always come across how you think it might - and don't remonstrate with drunken yobs just because you think you are in the right, it's more likely to exacerbate than to calm things down. And if you are getting some verbal abuse, just keep your head down and suck it up, however much you don't want to. I've been in a few of these situations over the years, with and without my children - and this approach has kept me out of trouble when the potential for it has been clear.

I hope that all football fans enjoy tonight's game and stay safe.

[Abe_froeman]

Good advice Duncan

[JohnL]

I went to Madrid with my Spurs supporting mate a few years ago - I just went for the beer - and we went in the Madrid end of the Bernabeu.

They all could see we were British - but nobody said anything just a few smiles and nudges - and I had a huge grin.

[tomszekeres]

DuncanW Wrote:

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> I wonder though how many of the people who seem so

> outraged over this actually rather petty incident

> have ever been to a football match as a travelling

> away fan.

Hear what you're saying, Duncan, but I've been to a fair few away matches, and I'm still shocked - if this were a Danish fan and his mates away from home, and on the bus near Wembley (or Deptford), I might not be, but this is a local family just minutes away from home in an area that isn't exactly renowned for hooliganism.

I don't condone football-related violence in any way, but at least with old-school casuals there was a code of honour ? punching a regular fan in front of his family is pretty shameful.

[malumbu]

Duncan, we are on another planet here. I was in Germany - Cologne, Dortmund and the like, in 06 for the world cup and the atmosphere around the towns and bars was wonderful. It took a bit of a dive when the England fans arrived, and there was no Russia either. It will be pretty safe in 2024 too.

I expect that things will have declined a little with the rise of Nationalism, in particularly in the East. But football in the 00s, including as an away fan, isn't a patch on the later part of the 20th century in terms of violence and intimidation.

I've been struck since being in London generally how good things have been, even at the New Den. Very different to being kept behind at the Old Stamford Bridge and the Boleyn Ground in the 90s, with a police escort afterwards.

[JohnL]

Sky News Reporter - Becky - sounded scared and then I think she got assaulted live on air.

[JohnL]

They cut away so quickly - the guys she was interviewing were well over 6 foot so I guess they stepped in.